Early 28 Gauge Production
 

I was wondering what the earliest known 28 gauge produced by Parker?

I've seen it published in articles that Parker started production in 1903 but own a 28 gauge in the 108,3xx range from 1902 that doesn't show up in the serialization book.

There was recently, a thread relating to early 28ga. guns.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...t=23804&page=9

There are many lower (V, P) grade guns whose serial numbers do not appear in the 'book', due to, according to Bill Murphy, time constraints place on the team working in the basement at Remington.
I have an early 28, which did not show up anywhere, but on close examination of several in the immediate preceding, and following guns, The research director found it was overlooked do to a red mark partially obscuring the number. looking at the records it was determined that it, and the one before it, were a pair ordered at the same time by a well known NY sporting Goods store.
All of this trivia notwithstanding, 108xxx is at least 26 guns past the last one in the list in the above thread.

I believe it's # 94373 with Damascus barrels

94373 is the lowest serial number in the table of 28 gauge guns in the rear of Vol II of TPS.

However, it is shown as a Grade 5 with 28-inch Titanic Steel barrels.





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Anyone know the serial number of Chas. Askins' heavy 30-inch barrel, 2 7/8 inch chambered, 28-gauge he writes about in his 1910 book and December 1912 Field & Stream article "The Twenty-Eight Gauge Elf"?

The "standard" 28-gauge shell back in the day was a 2 1/2-inch shell with 1 3/4-drams of bulk smokeless powder (or 14-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 5/8 ounce of shot.

Attachment 103581

The factory loaded 2 7/8-inch shell had a load of 2-drams of bulk smokeless powder (or 16-grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 5/8 ounce of shot.

Attachment 103582

Askins writes of hand loading 2 1/8 drams of Schultze and 3/4 ounce of shot in the 2 7/8-inch hull for his nearly 7- pound gun.

this is very interesting....a 2 7/8 inch shell and almost a 7 lb gun in 28 ga...this gun must have been a 1 frame gun possibly 2 frame...do we know the where abouts of this gun....charlie

I have a 28 that was made in 1900, and I believe there was one made in 1899.
94373 was made in 1900 also.

In addition to the V and P grade guns that were omitted, the Grade 2 guns within these ranges were not included either.





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The "Book" is the serialization book, which includes only stock book entries. Some of the research for the article in question was taken from early order books, adding to the available research. Order book information is available one gun at a time from Chuck, our researcher, at $40.00 a gun, or from an order book itself.

The team that took on the project of coping the records I understand were under a time constraint. They did a great job of getting what we now have at their on expense. For this I know we are all grateful.
I wonder if sometime in the future PGCA could get permission to access the records again.
It’s my understanding that each page had to be placed on a copy machine and copied.
With today’s technology with high definition cell phone cameras. It might be possible for a handful of people to quickly copy these records.
This would allow each page to be fully copied. Also many of the records are hard to read and the high definition pictures could be enlarge and contrast enhanced to better interpret what was written.

The problem isn't with the order book copies, it's with the stock book copies. They were copied on a Xerox copier that was 17" long. The stock books were at least 20" long so information on the right hand side of the ledger wasn't able to be copied. That plus the fact that sometimes the copier lid wasn't all the way down allowing light into the copier resulting in a dark unreadable copy on some Xerox copies.

I photographed all are paper copies with a digital camera so I don't use hard copies anymore. I can zoom in with incredible detail. All this could be resolved with a digital camera. Getting back in is the problem.

Actually, it wasn't the PGCA Research Committee who did not list some of the lower grades for the Serialization Book. The authors of The Parker Story, probably Commander Gunther, chose not to list the lower grades. It is my opinion that he just didn't have the time.

Time... or possibly a lack of interest in recording any gun below Grade 3...?





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That could be the case. Commander Gunther is no longer with us, nor is Charlie Price. Bill Mullins could give us his opinion.

From what I understand, and this is subject to correction, Cdr. Gunther spent the most time with transcribing and contracting keypunch personnel on what data went into the Serialization book. Is this correct? He is the one who made notations in red in the books he was examining.





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As I understand it, Commander Gunther copied the stock books single handed. I don't know about the red marks, never saw them. I was having lunch with Commander Gunther when he invited us to the parking lot at the Arms, and presented us with the stock book copies. No big discussion, just did it. What a guy.

I am not getting into the negotiations with the authors & the PGCA, that is a topic by itself. Bill is correct, in that Roy Gunther copied the STOCK books, basically, by himself, he also scanned the ORDER books for guns of a grade GREATER than D's and copied that info by hand; therefore, ignoring grades less than grade 3. A group of PGCA members obtained permission from then plant manager, Sam Renzey(sp) to enter Remington Arms in Ilion to copy the order books & IBM cards.
So, when the authors obtained permission from Remington to have the Parker Gun Identification & Serialization book published by Fjestad, the data base info that had been gathered by Gunther was used as a base for the publication.

That is why the LOWER grade guns (that are in the Fjestad book) of less than grade 3, from the ORDER books are missing .

I hope this finally answers the question !!!!

Allan



ially answers the question

Order Books
 

What Bill and Allan said is correct. To add to that…
A bit of background…. When Cdr. Gunther copied the Order Books ( one at a time as Remington only allowed one book to be taken out of fear of being lost) he copied only grade 3 and above guns as the TPS authors assumed collectors were primarily interested in the higher grades. Parker did not record their guns by grade but by dollar amount.
For example:
D grade guns were $100 guns
C grade guns were $150 guns
B grade guns were $200 guns
A grade guns were $300 guns
AA grade guns were $400 guns
A1 Special guns were $500 or above guns

Occasionally when sales or the economy were slow Parker would lower the price of the guns to motivate potential buyers. For example a customer might be able to buy an A1S for $400.

When Gunther went through the Order Books he always “assumed” for example a $400 gun was an AA gun and etc.
The Order Books were kept only up to 1920. Thereafter gun records were maintained on IBM cards. These cards recorded the grade, serial number, gauge,
date of manufacture and to whom shipped…. which usually was the wholesaler or retailer.

As with the Stock and Order books several IBM cards were missing and or damaged beyond legibility.

When the late Charlie Price built a data base he statistically accounted for the missing records and guns and added accordingly based upon the books that were available.

Hope this helps and might clear up some confusion.

Bill 🇺🇸

Records
 

PS…. Cdr. Gunther drove from Averill Park NY to Illion NY every day for one month to copy the records. He would copy all day and actually “burned” up one of Remington’s copy machines! They instructed him to bring his own copier in the future. Ron Kirby, then Executive Director of the PGCA had a son who sold copying machines and gracefully supplied one for the remaining coping necessary!
👍🤗

Bill

Thanks for the DETAILED data of the transaction, I did not want go into the details. I knew you would & thanks

Allan

Are there any plans to ask Roundhill LLC for access to the books in an effort to fill in the blanks on guns below grade 3? This group of guns makes up a significant number of additions to new, entry level collectors, and could be a significant source of new research letter revenue.

Edgar, there is no need to review the Order Books. This assumes all the Order Books were copied that Remington has and that the PGCA has all of these copies. What would be needed is someone to go through each Order Book order for guns grade 0,1, and 2 and see if the gun is in the Serialization Book (made from the Stock Books). If it's not found in the Serialization Book, it could be included in a new Serialization Book revised edition. I don't think the authors of TPS own that database but I could be wrong. It's not a job I would want.

If I’m not mistaken Steve Fjestad owned it.






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Chuck, I should have been more specific. What I meant, was copy the stock books again, with a camera arrangement like you used to photograph the order books, in order to more completely cover the missing information on the grades below grade 3. As there are many consecutive pages, where those guns are included, it would be easy to eliminate those and concentrate on runs of serial numbers obviously missing. Perhaps I have over simplified what would be required.

Edgar

I think you have missed the point----the PGCA data base copied from the ORDER books already has ALL of the lower grade guns less than D's ( grade 3)in it. Not necessary to recopy the Order Books.

The authors of TPS data base is the missing link to ALL of the info in the STOCK books.

If you have questions, you have my home #---call me

Allan

Thank you Allan, but you and Chuck must have misread my post (see above.) I did NOT say anything about re-copying the order books. In my reply to Chuck, I reiterated that I was suggesting re-copying the STOCK books, and only those portions which previously omitted the data for guns below Grade 3.

As we all know, the stock book information which we don't have is of very little interest. All the interesting information, original owner in particular, is in the order books. Thanks, Allan and Bill, for your help. To give proper credit to Ron and his son, I believe three copy machines were donated. I may be wrong about that, however.

In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge." Those actually started out in 2 1/2" cartridge size.

Craig, I don't know what you just said, but welcome. I will repeat my statement that information in the stock books about grades lower than Grade 3 is of very little interest to Parker collectors and would be a monumental task to copy. For those not familiar with the stock books, be aware that the gun you have in your hand gives you about all the information you will get from the stock books. Allan, please comment.

Thank you Craig.





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Just because it is in print doesn't make it true.

Craig wrote:

"In the book 'Best Guns' by Michael McIntosh (copyright edition 1999), on page 8 (5th paragraph) it says "... "in 1905, Parker built the first hammerless doubles in America chambered in 28-gauge."

As they say in PA Dutch country, "Edgar hat recht; Craig nichts besonders..." If missing 'book' dates & entries are interpolated correctly against SN chronology, the very first Parker 28 ga. built (a Damascus barrel Grade 5!) was built either in very late (e.g., November or December) 1899 or in January of 1900. Attempting to definitively document an exact production date absent the "missing books" is akin to predicting the movement of hurricanes in the Atlantic using the US vs. the European models.

Wanna bring that up with a certain 5'2" woman with a Graduate degree in Applied Meteorology (Emphasis on Tropical Storms and Hurricanes)
Darn that Research Director. I hope he doesn't have to pay back those vast sums collected on research letters for the over 100 28ga guns The Parker Story claims were made from 1900 to 1905.

Edgar, I'll return your money in exchange for the gun:rotf:

Nah, It's obviously a fake. I'll just scrap it.

I was wondering if the was any counts on how many 28 gauges were built on "O" frames ? I'd love to track down how many 0 Frame VH 28 gauges were made with 28" barrels.

I had read somewhere that when the 28-gauge was introduced; they were built on the 20-gauge 0-frames. Parker most likely took a bunch of 20-gauge guns that were languishing in inventory, fitted them with 28-gauge barrels and moved some inventory.

Later adding the 00-frame with a 15/16 inch firing pin spacing for a lighter weight 28-gauge then the early guns. Then in 1926, they introduced the 000-frame with a 13/16 inch spacing for the .410-bore.

I spoke with Larry Delgrego and when asked how many 0 frame VH 28 gauges where made he said it's either 14 or 19 total.

It wasn't clear if that number was for VH grades specifically and or specifically with 28" barrels.

He also mentioned it was an ongoing family debate weather the total number was 14 or 19, so it sounded like a topic well covered in his shop previously.

Attachment 104726

I think there is a lot more than 14 or 19 0 frame 28 gauges out there. I have seen more 0 frame 28 gauges than 00 frames. I don't have a ton of experience with 28 gauge Parkers, I have owned 4 and only one of the four was a 00 frame.

Thanks for the info, it sounds like he meant "0" frame 28 gauge VH's. Weather or not he was specifically noting ones with 28" inch barrels I'll have to follow up with him.

Somewhere I saw 275 as the number of 0 frame 28ga guns ,can't remember where. 0 frame 28ga guns where made for approx. 12 years, that would be about 23 a year from 1900 to 1912. For what's it worth, I doubt anyone knows for sure.