English & Euro Made SxS's.
 

I will be first to admit, as little as I know about Old American SxS's, and I actually do know a bit about them.... Not enough to be an expert, but enough to generally not make a huge mistake on one.

I don't know much if anything about English, or other European made SxS guns. Sure, I am familiar with some of the names, Purdy, Holland & Holland, Francotte, Webley & Scott, etc.... Just to name a couple that come to mind quickly.

So, let's say a man wanted to buy a nice 20ga SxS. One that is quality made, but not overly ridiculous in price. I love looking at the Purdy's and H&H guns, but they are not in my price world.....

I've looked at a few Webley & Scott, although it seems some of those are made in England, some in Turkey and not sure about other places.

So, what are good Euro brands/models to look at the are in the sub-5K world? Does such a thing exist? I am not even sure

Some day down the road, I want to pick up a nice 20ga, and while I might spend 5k on it, I sure as heck don't want to make a 5K mistake on something I don't know much about......

Just curious what are some guns to look for......

Joe ,
I'd look at Merkels, or try to find a nice Francotte. My first two nice side by sides were Merkel Model 8s, their base model, a 12 and a 20. I sold the 20 off to a dog trainer friend , but kept the 12 as it was NIB, with the intention to pass on to one of my grandchildren some day. If you look around you should be able to find a higher grade model with better engraving in your price range.
Good Luck,
Tim

Thanks, I've looked at a lot of Merkels... Trying to figure out what's what.

They seem to have a very good rep, I am in no hurry, just trying to learn what I can, so if I run across a gun that seems to have potential.... I don't do something stupid. Which, I have been known to do from time to time... :D

One other option I am seriously interested... Are the CSMC RBL guns in 20ga.... I sort of have that in my back pocket in case I just never run across something that really makes me smile, and the itch to get that 20ga gets itchier... :D

I love my RBL 20.

How is yours setup?

I keep the RBL as my option that I feel I can always go to. But for now, want to keep looking at guns, It may be a while before I pull the trigger on one, just because I keep flip flopping on what I want.:rotf:

28", beavertail, long LOP, case coloring, and exhibition Turkish walnut

Never been a German maker fan. I have an itch for a Spanish 28 and English 12. I held a Thomas Wilde 12g recently that was almost religious in it's balance and feel. $9,000 was more than I was willing or could spend.

I like Merkel sxs 20 gauge. Very well made. Also like Greeners. Not over the top priced and lots of quality.

I'm in love with these. My station in life is rather humble though...

https://www.john-dickson.com/available-guns
Take a look at the ones that are "in the workshop" or being "remanufactured". They use an older existing action of theirs and rebuild to suit

Maybe I should start playing lotto.

Another German SxS I have owned is JP Sauer, not over priced but a good honest quality gun.

The best value in quality S/Ss is found in the Spanish guns. Can't go wrong with AYA, Arrieta or Ugartechea. Most Spanish makers are now out of business but the used market has many great values.
Bob Jurewicz

Those are three I have looked at often, but not familiar enough with them to really know what's a good gun, good deal, etc..... I Was just looking at a very nice looking Arrieta the other day.....

I personally like Italian guns. Bernardelli shotguns are a great value and a very nice one can be had for well under $5K. Also, check out B. Rizzini and the FAIR shotguns. All great values. The Upland Gun Company is now offering an Italian gun from RFM, built to your specifications starting around $2k. All very good options. My favorite are Poli shotguns. They can get pricey but if you buy at auction or see one of the Cole’s imports on GI, you can get a really fantastic shotgun for under $5K.

One of the "best values" in European doubles is the Husqvarna 310s --

Attachment 94908

My WW-I vintage 12-gauge and 1947 vintage 16-gauge --

Attachment 94909

That's the second time I've heard the name Husqvarna for a SxS and same comment about being under rated. As far as Spanish, pick up a copy of Spanish Best, it's a pretty good read about Spanish guns. I picked up a little aYa 16g for under a grand and it's worn but handles nice and is a certifiable rainy day duck gun choked F/XF coming in at a tad over 6lbs. Could also slay a gobbler which she'll get whirl at this year after the Trojan.

I acquired a Webley & Scott 702 12 gauge 3 or 4 years ago, made in Birmingham in the '60s. Weighs 6 lb 10 oz. Would by in OP's price range. I like it!

The Brits got it right with 12g in my eye. I don't think anyone does it better. Then again, they're not 3" goose slayers, they're "proper games guns" and handle as such : ) I, however, will not wear them knicker things.

Dont overlook JP Sauer. Especially their early guns. This is a 16 ga 28" barreled "side lock Knock about" with cocking indicators. Sweet gun. 2.5" shells and Krupp marked "3 ring barrels" It was made in 1897 or so. Solid gun.

https://i.imgur.com/nB39cu0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1Vu5riw.jpg

Can't beat the early Husqvarna guns the 310 series and 201 sidelocks are fantastic guns,the actions were based on Sauer guns and tweaked by Husqvarna but remember like most- earlier made the better

Euro shotgun dealer
 

I have purchased several English shotguns from Charlie Pfleger at Hill Rod and Gun in Bozeman MT. He is very knowledgeable about vintage English shotguns and updates his inventory several times a year. His web site is: http://www.hillrodandgun.com/

I have a Husky 16 gauge Lyx and it is one fine gun! Bobby

Joe
I have a few English guns that are not top name guns; Wc scott, greener, Gibbs however if you wanted something that may hold its value in a 5k range I would go for a Parker reproduction as think think they will continue to increase in value. They also will handle steel shot and heavy loads. Most of the guys here are not to excited about the 20 gauge so it may be time to buy one. I have one 20 but I use my 28 mostly.
Most of the English and foreign guns I have had/ handled are not stocked to fit me and finding one that is can be difficult and if you need to shoot steel shot or heavy loads they are not ideal.
All that said I have a 28 wc Scott that I ordered years ago ( with my dimensions) and it is my go to bird gun, under 6 lbs. They also would fit into your price range I believe if you can find one on the secondary market with in your budget.

What do you define as "earlier"? What years are the best? A cursory search turned up mostly guns from the mid 50's for little money.

Parker Repro vs CSMC RBL.....

Those are two I am seriously considering. And flip flop between quite a bit. Does anyone own both of these guns, what are your thoughts between the two?

Thanks for all the input, learning alot.

I own both in 20 ga. The RBL is a nice, well made gun. It shoots well for me but I had to alter the stock pitch to make it do so. It is lighter than my repros and it kicks more so I only shoot 3/4 oz loads when shooting targets. It has functioned flawlessly and has the benefit of screw in chokes.

I absolutely love my Parker repros as they are stocked just right for me and those I have are on the heavy side which I much prefer. Also, I have broken 2 ejector hammers which are expensive and a pain to get repaired.

All that said,if I hd to choose between the two I'd take my repros any day over the RBL. Others, I am sure would say just the opposite.

I own an H&H Royal Sidelock Ejector from back in the days when God allowed me to have money.
I'm a big Parker guy, so have always kinda avoided getting into comparisons. That said. They call them "British Bests" for a reason.
Mine is a 12 bore with 30" BBLs, weighs in at 6lbs 5 oz. Balances, and swings like a wand, and workmanship is beyond reproach! The engraving is absolutely flawless!
Mine was built in 1900, so is now 121 years old. Now the down side:
Broke an action spring, so had to send it off to a gunsmith for replacement. (Just the right side sidelock action)
Insured the sidelock for 3500.00, then started researching what the replacement cost for a sidelock would be, if the shipping monkeys somehow lost the package. OMG!
Owning expensive guns is not just about purchase price.
Thankfully, all went well. Action is back, gun is back together, ready for another season.

Husqvarna shotguns look for the ones with Greener crossbolts.

Merkels need to have the reinforced frame, you can find Sauers and Simsons built on Merkel style frames.

Bernardelli's are quite nice, I shoot a Elos 12ga with 25" barrels that comes in a 5 lb 15 oz and is pleasure to carry and lightning fast at the flush.

French guns can be very interesting, Darnes can be nice I have a 28+-" barreled 12ga that comes in just under 6 lbs but the triggers can be heavy. Manufrance Ideals are beautiful guns but the safety is tough to get used to, their Robusts are nice also and have conventional safeties.

I have a pair of FEG's that are pretty nice, rock solid just not show pieces, the ejectors are in the forend and removeable with the push of a button.

Don't be afraid of 16's they are nearly as svelte as a 20 and much easier to find. I only have a couple of 20's left, my wifes sxs skeet gun and a CZ Bobwhite that I keep around for clubs that require steel shot and dove hunts that require steel.

cousins..
 

Very similar guns. The Sauer is a Model 1 (1906), I am told. The Husqvarna is a Model 310 AN- (nickel steel 1918). The engraving pattern is very similar despite the difference in age of the two. The Husqvarna has the Greener crossbolt but is very similar, otherwise.

I ended up buying a F.A.I.R. Iside 20ga last week. Should be here by end of week I hope....

I have a 20ga hammer gun by a little known maker by the name of William Ford. It sports 30" damacus barrels and is a delight to shoot. I can't really date the gun other than it is a Birmingham back action I believe.

Second on Hill Rod and Gun. Take a look at Kirby on Vintage Doubles and give him a call. Kirby has more guns, English and Spanish, not posted on his site and many in transit.

Double Lab, is there a street address on the rib of your William Ford? He was in business from 1885-1900. 1885-1888 he was in the Eclipse Works at 23 Loveday Street, then at 15 St. Mary's Row from 1889 to 1900. Might narrow the DOM down a bit. Both in Birmingham.

Thanks Bob. Address is the St. Mary's Row one. Nice to know approximate date it was made.

It really is a wonderful gun to shoot.