Titanic Steel
 

How good was the T13 Titanic Steel that was produced in the 1930's Parker? Will it handle "modern" 2.75" hunting loads?

The steel will handle the loads but remember that the wood is old and could crack or split under heavy loads. Most of us generally try to keep the pressures down by buying ammo that is made for older guns. Today's "off the shelf" ammo is made to pretty heavy standards so as to operate autoloading guns without a problem.






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Good advise. Thank you!

Rule of thumb, pressure stresses barrel steel, recoil stresses wood stocks. Your titanic barrels if they have what is considered "servicable" barrel wall thickness will handle current factory loads. However, as you increase both payload and velocity you increase the force of recoil. The contact points between receiver and stock are small. Age does not make wood stronger. Stick with what are moderate velocity, lighter payloads. This is much easier to do if you reload. If you are like me you will be pleasantly surprised at the performance of lighter loads, 7/8, 1, and 1 1/8 ounce out of 12ga and 3/4 and 7/8 out of a 20ga, again at moderate velocity, 1100 to 1250 fps.

Best shells for any old shotgun are, lower pressure, lower velocity, lower shot weight. I really recommend you get into reloading if you are going to shoot old guns on a regular basis. It simply opens up so many possibilities. The problem with factory hunting loads are the premium stuff are generally heavy loads in terms of recoil and the "bargain" loads are put together with inferior components (giving poor patterns) such as soft lead shot to save money.

If you don't reload, remember you are shooting a graded Parker, check out RST shotshells, they are pricey but many of the loads were designed for use with older guns.

Finally, most cracked stocks are the result of loose screws that hold the stock in place. Keep them tight. However, don't put a screwdriver on your gun unless the screw driver fits and you know what you are doing. If you don't have either, take it to a trusted professional.

Thanks Duke.

Your welcome, next month I am thinking the Skipper from Gilligans Island or maybe Gilligan :)

Or the Professor...

Bruce I have a bunch of Remington Express #6 16ga loads. I used to use these when I had a Browning Sweet Sixteen but won't use them in MY Parkers. Are you comeing to the U.P. shoot ot The Southern? I'll sell them cheap.

Bruce, I'm guilty once again of generalizing. I should have taken into consideration the fact that there are those who shoot "off the shelf" ammo in their old Parkers... so, please excuse me. No offense intended.

Personally, it matters not to me what others choose to shoot in their old doubles. But I would suggest those new to the game of collecting and shooting these fine old guns to simply err on the side of caution.

[QUOTE=Bruce Day;32378]It is personal choice whether one uses light/moderate loads or heavy/stout loads. Without seeing "the" gun in question I think it is always good advice to recommend use of a light/moderate load. I have run plenty of heavy loads through fluid steel Parkers built before the '20's. I didn't hurt them as they are solid guns with tight stocks. However, after I started reloading light/moderate loads, especially the 7/8 ounce 12ga and 3/4 ounce 20ga I found I was giving up very little in observable performance on clays but lost a lot of recoil. Another bonus is that the cost of lead shot makes up 45-55% of the cost of each reload, lighter loads stretch your dollar too.

About the only time I shoot a heavy load is for waterfowling, however I recently stepped up to a 10lb NH 10 bore. I have found that gun with 1 1/4 ounce load will fold a duck or goose like a cheap suitcase if I do my part.

Light/moderate loads, gentle on your gun, gentle on your shoulder and gentle on your wallet. Like Mikey said in the old comercial, "try 'em, you'll like them" :)

I deleted my posts. The fellow asked about hunting loads, not clays loads, so I responded about hunting loads that I use and that I know that others use who are major collectors of Parkers. I have a 10ga Parker, but I prefer to carry the 16 for long walks after pheasant , as I am not fond of carrying an 8 lb gun, and I used the 16 for many years on ducks.

I am certainly no expert. I just like to hunt late season pheasant and a person should never do what I do.

Todays light loads in terms of payload and velocity were hunting loads prior to the 1920's. From what I can tell they must have worked pretty good back then.

Geez Bruce if you post a reply that may spark some honest discussion why not just leave it there instead of deleting it. After all this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. I am sure that folks that read this stuff can make their own decisions and separate the wheat from the chaff.

Did Bruce do that again? That is most inconsiderate. As I recall, we once banned a poster for disruptive behavior that included many deletions of posts. That poster was also disrespectful to other posters!!

We have been through this appropriate load business many times and I see no possible resolution to it. When a person asks what can he shoot I somehow have the idea that he should be shown the Parker recommendations about what his gun was patterned for, and the Parker load tables and the Parker service and proof load tables. That can be combined with a subjective recommendation about using low pressure loads for clays, but the objective statement is what Parker recommended and individual's subjective views may be the low presure recommendations. I personally reload low pressure for clays and usually shoot factory loads for hunting. On the other side are those who always say to shoot low pressure without mentioning what Parker recommended. I do not see the situation as resolvable, as I have posted photo after photo of Parker pattern tags, load tables, catalog tables, etc, all to no avail when a person asks what he can shoot and the answer is we all shoot low pressure loads.

Bruce what people are saying, is when a "newbe" asks for advice go slow, it is much safer to recommend low presure loads (as you have not seen his gun) then to go off and tell him he is fine shooting long range max loads. You don't know the condition of the stock (and neither does he) so just because Parker said you could shoot X load through the gun the gun is now at least 70 years old and probably much more and the stock may or may not be able to take that kind of pressure. I know you have a lot of experience with these guns you can look at a stock and know right away what you can shoot through it but the guy asking the question has no idea so that's why everyone recommends low pressure loads to a newbe and after that you can treat your guns anyway you want but for the first time user it's better to be safe the sorry. Eric

Then why don't why guys give such a new person the full explanation? Give him the load charts, the TPS service and proof tables, the catalog recommended loads. He says he has a 1930's D; I assume 12ga and you know as well as I do that those were almost always 1 1/2 frame, maybe a 2, with a 1 1/4oz at 3 1/4 dre per Parker hang tags, which is still under the service limits. That is a stout load and one can buy such shells from all the modern manufacturers.

Why must people presume that the stock is infirm, or that the barrels are thin? Why don't we just ask him? One of our new guys that was with me the other day showed me his new old GHE 12ga from the late 1920's. That gun will handle these reasonable modern loads. 1 1/2 frame, good barrels, great wood, even thicker than usual in the wrist. Why don't we give these guys the full story instead of maybe presuming that they are not capable of understanding Parker loads or recognizing that they have a cracked wrist or something else that would limit the gun?

Maybe we do a FAQ that carries the full explanation, with a subjective recommendation to use or reload for low pressure when a person doesn't need to use the full capabilities of the gun, but we have never been able to achieve any consensus on that.

To me its like a person saying he has has a nice old Corvette and people writing in and saying he shouldn't drive it over 60 mph.

OK, So I but a nice old Corvette...It looks pretty good so I stick the key in it and promptly take it up to 120 MPH...Seems silly to me. I think I would drive it for a while and see how it handles and such. Same thing with a new to me Parker.I understand that for the target games we don't really need to push the envelope on loads but the new technology developed by RST,Poly-Wad etc.has proven to me that I don,t need to use promo shells in my guns. I also understand that for long flushing Pheasant's and water foul you need loads that can reach out and touch them but I still don,t think that means 10,000 PSI shells. Bob Fabian, Scott and Pete Lesters home brewed stuff has proven that time and again.

That's an interesting subjective view, but my guess is that a Parker gun owner might be capable of receiving and understanding what Parker said, listening to subjective views of others, and judging for himself. Maybe I've way overestimated the intelligence of a Parker owner but to me its not rocket science.

I guess I don't like the low pressure police approach and believe that a new Parker shooter is best served by a full explanation in which objective Parker statements are separated from various individuals' subjective recommendations. I generally shoot lower recoil loads because I see no reason to pound the gun or my shoulder, but there are times when I feel a need to use the full capabilities of the gun, and I will tell anybody that a Parker is very capable and I am not afraid of running full loads through my gun when I have hard to kill far out birds.

It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with information and with shotshell technology changing ie: better patterning loads at a lower PSI why beat yourself and the gun up? I just don,t understand. Parker Brothers load data is very interesting from a historical stand point but there are too many unknowns for me to take it as gospel.I'll tell ya what you shoot what you want and so will I. But when the newcomer asks about recommended loads I will continue to explain that lesser is sometimes better.

That's why the issue is unresolvable. To me its the difference between what Parker said and people's personal opinions. Nothing I can say or present will turn some folks from their opinions.

I'll continue to shoot low recoil loads most of the time and full loads when I need to late season and long shots.

I just had a telephone conversation with Dean, whom I have high regard for and have always had much in common.

I told Dean an interesting anecdote. Last Tuesday hunting out in SW Kansas I was using a C Bernard 16 ga with 7/8oz #5 shot at about 1150 fps, a low pressure handload. I shot two pheasants from a fair distance , well knocked down, and lost both, never could find them, yet I got a good shot on them. I don't like to lose birds, yet most of us lost at least one bird that day, late season, hard feathers, long shots.

The next day I switched to my fluid steel P 16 with factory max 1 1/8 loads, then for the next two days did not lose a single bird. They were tough birds, one I hit in the head and body, it dropped both legs and flew for 200 yards, shedding feathers. Then it went straight up, typical of a head shot, and at the apex of its climb, dropped straight down dead, whereupon a hawk was on it immediately until Charlie got there before I did and chased it off. I feel that going to heavy and max loads made the difference and again, I hate losing shot birds.

To me, there are times when you need all the capabilities the gun will give you. Much of the time you can get away with reduced recoil loads, and to me reduced recoil means reduced shot load and/or speed from max. Sometimes I need all that I can get.

I think that Dean and I may be able to work out a FAQ answer that takes all that into effect and gives a complete answer to this question about "what can I shoot" that we get every couple weeks. The answer will deal with a check the condition of your gun issue also.

try 6's all the time, i use 7/8ths oz 7's at 1100 in my 20 and 12 and it hit them hard out to 35 and 40 yds stone dead, remember these are shotguns not rifles. you can alway hit where you aim.i would just try smaller shot to fill in your patterns. i have shot geese out to 30 yds with 7/8ths oz bismuth 6's out of my tight choked 20( a 20 is not my goose hunting gun just in a pinch a few times:whistle:) and for them most part they are dead or not going any where. i load ALL my shell. i think the fastest FPS i shoot is 1250 1 1/4 bismuth out of a 2 frame 12 but for the most part i shoot between 1100 to 1190 fps and not to many hit birds go too far if any where at all :cool:

I've shot hundreds of pheasant out here. I like #6 for close and #5 for farther, I feel that 5's carry energy better. The shotgun ballistic tables bear out that 5's retain energy better. Don't hunt many ducks, but that was my experience with ducks also except I would go to a 12ga for bigger than #5 shot. I think a 16 is pretty well maxed out for a good pattern with #5 shot. I use #6's on the quail we have out here, they don't die very easy either. These birds out here you have to hit hard to kill and if you don't they will crawl away and you can lose them.

By the way, I hunted SW Kansas at the end of Nov, guided really, and took back up shots except when I was the only hunter near the bird. I exclusively used the 7/8 oz #5 shot handloads and did not lose a single bird in three days, limiting out for three days running. Now my shooting didn't deteriorate that fast .....the difference was that it was later season and the birds were heavier feathered and got up farther away. Some of the Nov shots were long distance after being hit by others. That's why I was so frustrated in Jan to lose birds and went to max loads.

Not always so. Again reloading has it's advantages. Although the pressures are lower recoil is a function of force = mass x acceleration ie. they are still gonna kick and be rougher on the stock than a light load.

From the Hodgdon Reloading Center

Federal Gold Medal Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4 oz. Longshot Powder 30.7gr Win. 209 primer Rem. R12L wad 7,700 PSI 1330 fps

Federal Gold medal Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4oz. Longshot Powder 33.4gr Win. 209 primer, WAA12F114 wad 7,200 PSI 1385 fps

Federal High Power Hull = 16ga Lead Shot 1 1/8 oz. Longshot Powder 25gr Win. 209 primer Rem. SP16 wad 8,300 PSI 1240 fps I believe a 1 1/8 ounce 16ga is a magnum loading.

As far as birds go there is not a bird more tenacious to life than a Giant Canada Goose ('cept maybe an Ostrich and don't like the taste of Ostrich), those who have had to dispatch enough birds that came down with a broken wing will know. Again, right size shot, right choke and within the working range of the load and gun and light loads will knock the snot out of them.

I've been having troubles reloading Fed 12s and 16s. Have MEC progressives for both. I'm getting primers sunk down too deep and therefore the hammers don't hit deep enough. Both have been expanding too much to eject and I've been pulling the shells out with the rim of another shell. The Feds load low pressure and my buddy Mike Koranda loves them but lately I've just been throwing them away after firing, and that includes those nice paper Feds. If I don't sink the primers down, then I can't pull the shells out of the turret. Rems and Wins I have had no problem with.

Well then maybe these will work.

Winchester AA Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4 oz. 800-X 27.5gr Rem. 209P primer Rem. SP12 wad 7,800 PSI 1275 fps

Winchester XPert Hull = Lead Shot 16ga 1 1/8 oz. SR 4756 23gr Rem. 209P Rem. SP16 wad 8,900 PSI 1150 fps

Well, I'm sure they would, and I reload low recoil for clays shooting all the time. Love the 7/8 loads in 12 and 16 ga, and 3/4 loads in 20, but is there something wrong with my barrels that I don't know about that would limit my use of these guns?

Those reloading formulae that you are using mean low pressure for barrels, and are not lower recoil than commercially made similar loads, recoil being formulaic based upon the speed and weight of the ejecta. I think I have pretty good barrels and wouldn't even consider a gun without good barrels.

I think I was imprecise when I spoke of low pressure above. What I should have said was that to me low recoil means reduced shot load and or speed from max. As you recognize, low recoil and low pressure are different, but generally connected. Low recoil is easier on the gun and shoulder, low pressure easier on the barrel hoop stress. Low pressure can be managed by speed of burning of the components, low recoil only by shot and shot cup weight , the weight of the gas coming out of the barrels and the speed of everything upon exit.

I would say obviously not. However all Parkers have 70+ year old wood and many guns are 100+ plus years old. Stocks do not crack by themselves. Screws can be loosened by recoil. The contact points between receiver and stock very small and will not be getting bigger. To me the point here is, you don't need heavy loads for many applications so it is good advice to limit their use if and when possible. The benefits of lighter loads are numerous, often better pattern percentages, they can help stop bad habits like lifting one's head off the stock in anticipation of recoil, they stretch reloading dollars further. They will kill game and clays better than one would think possible especially if all one has shot before is modern guns and heavy loads. It is good general advice to use lighter loads in old doubleguns when possible including fluid steel Parker's.

OK, so assume good road, good tires, just changed oil, checked transmission fluid and rear end grease, 357, four speed, four barrel, how fast can I go without creating too much pressure???

Depends on whether you have 2 3/4" or short chambers :rotf:

Pete, I absolutely agree and do shoot light recoil loads much of the time. But lets take for example the 1 1/4 1275 fps load you have above. The recoil formula doesn't care what pressure was generated by the slower burning 800x powder and I suspect without calculating that the recoil is about the same with that load as it is with for example a 1 1/4 commercial Fed Game Shoc load that runs about the same speed. With your load,the pressure for barrel hoop stress is likely less than the Fed commercial load. So again, cutting back the weight and speed of everything that comes out of the barrel is the only way to reduce recoil, and sometimes I feel that I want the max, and if I have a gun in good shape, why shouldn't I use it to its capabilities once in a while?

Damn that's nice. But don't take it over 60mph. I'm sure you never do.

I don't believe I said you shouldn't. My point is the best advice to anyone new to a Parker shotgun is to be kind to it in all ways including use of lower pressure, lower recoil loads when possible recognizing most guns are sporting some old wood (wow now there's an opening) :)

No you didn't say that. Maybe we can get together a FAQ response that will take into account facts that we know about capabilities yet at the same time provide subjective recommendations.

Those of us with old wood do not believe there are any diminished capabilities.:)

Ah yes, better living through chemistry :rotf:

You can go fast until something breaks--and that is what the other guys are saying.

I would have thought that what breaks your stock is the Force of the explosion which a function of mass time acceleration.
The velocity of the projectile is important but the time it takes to reach that velocity (acceleration) is More important. A slow burn that gets the shot to its max veloctiy near the muzzel will put much less force at the stock head than a fast burn that gets it there 6 inches in front of the shell. I am not sure but I think pressure may be more proportional to Force than inertia which is mass times velocity which I think you have been talking about.

Just to clear up what I said: I think that pressure may be the important factor for both barrel and stock head (if i am right that it is proportional to Force. the ultimate muzzel velocity of the load is more important to the pheasant than the parker.

With that 'vette I think you should worry more about not going so fast the chics can't hop right in :cool: