Pre NID ithacas
 

Question. My understanding that the NID Ithaca’s , starting around 1925
Or so were built with a lot of improvements. Question is about the pre NID specimens. Still a great upland gun? Better or worse than the NIDs?
Thanks in advance!

the NID is a solid gun built for modern loads

the previous designs, up to the preceding Flues model were not

having said that- in good condition the earlier guns are great with light loads - I really like my 20ga flues for upland hunting

but day in/day out the NID is a better design - I have had a couple - still have one - a
Super 10

and IMHO - few beat the Ithaca engraving on a graded gun-

I have an early 4E 20 and a 1 1/2 grade 28. Both Flues with 2 1/2" chambers. I load light and have had no problems with either. Im more fond of the Flues.
Chris, AZ

Thanks for the replies

I guess which one specifically are you talking about? Ithaca had 5 different designs of hammerless doubles including the NID. A few more if you want to add the Lefever and western arms variants too.

Each one was a completely different design from the others. The NID was the last one. It was the strongest by far. It was basically a design that borrowed from the best parts of other makers and meshed them together into one design. And this is how they advertised it too.

The flues, which was the design before the NID was made for the longest time period and was the simplest design of them all. But it got a bad reputation over the years due to the frames cracking and the breech balls failing. The guns were built to be very lightweight and when people used hotter loads than intended, bad things can happen. Of course the issues always root from user error, not the actual design. The frames on the flues were beefed up some in the later years, but the damage had been done as far as the opinion of them. In my opinion, the earlier flues and prior versions were much more finely finished than any NID ever was. Especially in the higher grades.

I agree with Brian on the early Flues models. The engraving was especially well done, and for the various grades, the wood was often stunning. If you want a light upland gun, an early Flues is more than likely to suit your wants.

NID Invoice
 

I to have always been a fan of the NID. Factory 2 barrel sets are rare. I came across this NID 20 gauge some years ago with 26 & 28 inch tubes with another uncommon feature, a straight grip. I always got a little laugh out of the invoice which states "Del. at factory to Miss A. D. Osborn". Apparently it was made for her as it has her initials in the stock oval. Note that the extra set of barrels was a staggering $49.88, sounds like a small enough premium but it was roughly half the price of the base gun.

Ithaca NID's have always been some of my favorite shotguns, as it's nice to have a couple of SxS's you don't have to baby as much ammo wise...... I still own two of them, a 16ga GrII and a 12ga Field. It seems there are always those who favor one over the other Flues vs NID's.... I guess it's sort of like favorite colors... Not everyone's favorite color is blue....

Both of mine have 2 3/4 chambers, and can handle most modern loads in reasonable range. No steel, or heavy high velocity loads.

Interesting that ten years into the NID era, the Ithaca Gun Co. was using up invoices that still pictures the Flues lock at the top. Looking through some other pics of invoices I have I find this style earlier --

Attachment 92412

the style with the Flues lock on another invoice from 1938, and then this style in 1942 --

Attachment 92413

That gun would look nice in my gunroom. My NIDs in .410-bore, 28-gauge, 16-gauge and 12-gauge are all 26-inch barrel guns and sticking up right in the middle of that row is my 20-gauge No. 4E with 30-inch barrels.

As to the OPs original question the engraving on the early higher grade Ithacas, prior to the 1915 introduction of the bolder McGraw style, was some of the best.

So, Randy, no pictures of the gun? It sounds like like a really nice one.

No problem Garry. Retrieving the pics reminded me that I need to upgrade my photos of this gun. Also I have a nice 2 barrel case for it that would make for some good pics. When I got this one the wood had been refinished decently and the metal was void of any color at all so I elected to finish the restoration and sent it off to Gunter Pfrommer.

This one is for Mr. Noreen as it would be the one he is most interested in. :) Said in a complimentary manner mind you.

Thanks, Randy! I still say that grade-for-grade, Ithaca had some of the nicest wood on their guns.

I have owned them all and still own 2 Flues, 2 Lewis, and one Crass. My 20 gauge Flues field grade with 30 inch barrels I bought from a member here and it is one of my favorite walk up hunting guns. 5lbs 10 oz, factory bored cyl and full. My next is a 1 1/2 grade Flues 16 ga with 28 in bbls bored mod and full that shoots cyl and IC patterns with spreader loads. A little heavier at 6 lbs 10 oz. My next is a Lewis field grade 16 ga with 26 in bbls bored IC and Mod at 5 lbs. 15 oz. Little too much drop at heel on that one at 3 inches, but I can hit with it if I pay attention to keeping my head up.

I have two others that were restocked to my dimensions, a 12 ga Lewis 2 barrel set and a 12 ga Crass Gr. 2 that I had Kearcher and Pfrommer restore. It is a beautiful gun but weighs 8 lbs 4 oz and is too heavy for me to enjoy in the field. I sold a 1935 NID that was too heavy for my taste and a 1906 Minier that had 3 1/4 inches drop and I couldnt shoot, but had a beautiful chain damascus barrel in original finish. All of the guns have their own merits and faults. The engraving on the Grade 2 Crass is nicer by far than most Grade 2 Parkers , and the Flues actions are so simple that I was able to pull the sears and recut them on a jig to restore 3 1/2 lb trigger pulls to what were hair triggers. I am not noted for my gunsmithing skills otherwise.

The Crass and Lewis and Minier models are all about the same except for coil mainsprings in the Minier. Less complicated than Parkers but not super easy to work on like the Flues. I have one more I forgot, a Grade 1 S Crass that needs restoration but has the sweetest lines of any of them, forend with a simple swale and a half-pistol grip on the buttstock, and engraving without a lot of coverage on the sides, but a beautiful floorplate rosette much larger and prettier to my mind than any Grade 1 Parker.

All That said, they are fun to collect, hard to find in decent shape except for the higher grades at higher prices, and generally not particularly attractive in the field grades. Parkers, even in the OV grade, are much better made and assembled than the Ithacas I've handled. As Dewey Vicknair says, they are a "farm implement" pretty much.

I agree it seems that every pre NID I have seen, especially Crass, Minier and Lewis were tired, beat and loose. I have only owned one Ithaca and it's 10ga Crass. They don't come any more plain then a grade 1P. I found this one attractive because it had a lot of condition, decent dimensions, on the light side for a 10 and was under $500. The only significant flaw was a broken screw in the top tang which I had repaired, it didn't cost much but I waited a long time to get it back. It shoots well, it's patterns are nothing to get excited about, 60+ and 70+ percent but overall it works very well with 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 ounce loads. It's definitely not a Parker but it's been a good shooter for a fraction of the cost and I am happy with it.

Thank you Randy. Ithaca barrel flats aren't usually the interesting read many Parker barrel flats are.

I just realized my 12-gauge No. 4E Skeet Gun is the gun just before Randy's.

No. 461815 --

Attachment 92489

Attachment 92490

Attachment 92491

Do you know what the "plus" or "cross" sign markings are for? I have those on my 1938 G2 16ga NID...... Never have read what they meant....

One other question, looks like the "weep holes" for lack of better term on underside of barrels have screws in them? Neither of my NID's have that, or is that just my eyes not seeing the pics too good..... :D

How cool is that ? If you were trying in earnest to find that serial numbered gun just below or above one you have it would probably never happen. As usual you have a keen eye Dave, good spot.

You are seeing it correctly Joe. Surely an aftermarket embellishment that possibly was an attempt to seal the weep holes.

They are the mark of Charles August, the Ithaca employee who proved the barrels. It appears from my observations that the practice started about the time they dropped the cocking indicators on the NIDs in the 459xxx range. Here are some other employee marks.

Alvin Burgess --

Attachment 92493

Amzi Tubbs --

Attachment 92494

Charles Fox --

Attachment 92495

Jay Dart --

Attachment 92496

Harold Haws --

Attachment 92497

Thanks for sharing the Ithaca pictures, I always liked beautiful farm implements. (I know Dewey was referring to Flues mdls)

I've actually know of 2 (Ithaca) guns that are consecutive serial #'s to ones that I currently own, I'm in the process of buying the one and the other I've expressed interest in.

The one pair of consecutive serial # guns would be a Grade 3 NID 12 fully optioned 12 and a Grade 7 NID fully optioned 12.

The second pair of consecutive serial #'s are both Grade 4 NID 20's that are fully optioned with the one gun being a 2 barrel set.

I wonder if the consecutive serial # guns were on the work benches at Fall at the same time, I guess I need to get ship dates?

Stan

I've had the good fortune to find one pre-NID closet queen --

Attachment 92504

Attachment 92505

Attachment 92506

Attachment 92507

A 12-gauge, 30-inch, A Grade NIG which according to Walter went to B & B whoever of whatever they were 4/2/1910. My take is that the original owner fired it once with its 3 1/4 inch drop-at-heel. It whacked him in the cheek something fierce and was relegated to the closet.

Very nice gun Dave. Stan for some reason you reminded me of the Grade 3 NID 20 with 32" barrels that escaped our grasp. More specifically, my grasp.:banghead:

That would have been yours Randy, you had me beat. I wish I knew where that gun went, it must have been a dandy.
I often wondered if it was intentionally pulled back after they realized the mistake on the price, but it hasn’t surfaced that I’m aware of.
Stan

Thanks, that makes sense, since my 1927 NID does not have the marks, but my 1938 gun does... :cheers: