0 Frame 16s
 

A while back, and I don't remember what thread or who said, but the conversation turned to the 0 frame 16s. Someone refereed to them as the almost seen misty shadow figures of Camelot. Really? Do we know how many are out there? How many w/Damascus or with fluid steel, Any twist?
I can account for only 1, VH 26" M x I chokes, appears original to me but doubt leather covered butt pad. Wish I had more of 'em. 0 frame 16 w/30" barrels for doves, Hmmmm. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Note the tiny "K" on the frame lug next to the 0. Any wisdom on my questions is welcomed and appreciated as always.

I have a #1-1/2 frame, SG transition era 26" VH12 with a leather covered pad like that. Am unsure of it's originality.

Here is a similar tiny K on the lug of the massive 6-frame 12-guge Quality VH the Puglisi had some years ago --

Attachment 91673

I have also seen that tiny K stamped in the space between the lug and the cocking hook, but can't lay my cursor on a picture right now.

I have recorded a very tiny J.S on the lug of many hammer guns and some early hammerless ones --

Attachment 91674

Keith, of all the 16’s I’ve handled or even seen about half have been on the 0-frame. Of all the 16’s I have owned only 1 is other than a o-frame.







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They are not rare by any means.

I have personally seen more 0 frame 16s than I have 1 frame 16s. By a lot.

That's odd. Searching hard, no price limitations, I find one #0 frame for every 100 #1 frames for sale (estimation and maybe exaggeration but it's clear I can't find them). Maybe the folks who have them never sell them?? I probably wouldn't.

But we must remember the standard frame size for the sixteen gauge was always the 1-frame.






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I have 2. They each weigh in at just 6#. One has 28" barrels the other 26". Don't plan on parting with them any time soon. And that is why you don't find as many for sale that often.
Bob Jurewicz

In the later years, anything over 200000, I seem to see far more 1-frame 16-gauges.

In continuing to look through the pictures I've saved I see tiny O, B, D, V in addition to the K and J.S on the lug and in the space forward of the lug. And, just to be different, my Father's old 12-gauge Quality VH has a tiny 6 next to the much larger 2 frame size stamp on the lug?!?

I have 2 16s that serial number over 200000, one a VH SST, one a GHE SST, both are on #1 frames, 28", both about 6#6oz. This gun weighs 5#14oz, barrels stamped 2#15oz.
I wonder what the tiny letters indicate.

Show us a picture of the tiny letters.

If they are J.S. It is the stamp of John Stokes.



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I have two 16, 0 frames. A VH and a DHE. Both fluid 26". The VH is 6lb 4 oz and the DHE is 6 even. The VH was fairly easy to locate but the DHE took some legwork.

I recently acquired my first 16 on a 0 frame. A grade 1 (PH) with 32" twist barrels in the 76k serial number range. It weighs a dainty 6 lbs 12 oz.

I have 3 VH...one is straight grip..2 GH..one is straight grip..and 1 TL lightened frame hammer..

I have 5 total. Two Trojans, a skeet, and a PH w/32" tubes all on the 1 frame. I have a GH with Damascus 28" tubes on a 0 frame. I also have a VHE20 / 26" obviously on the 0 frame. I like the smaller frame size in 16 or 20 for grouse/woodcock hunting.

I have noticed the same thing. I don't remember seeing any 0 frame 16's over sn 200,000. My theory is they got better at making stronger lighter weight barrels. But who knows?

The best are the 26" 0 frame 16's. I have one that is 6 pounds even and handles like my 28's

Dean, the tiny letter I refer to is in photo #7 on the lug just forward of the 0 indicating frame size. It is a "K". "Researcher" is aware of several different ones including the JS you refer to.

I showed the J.S on the lug of hammer gun 42647 in my first post in this thread. Here it is on a hammerless 60605 --

Attachment 91679

and hammer gun 35651 --

Attachment 91681

Here is the tiny K on 138615 red arrow --

Attachment 91680

Are these initials of one of the craftsmen? Any reason (known) they appear on some guns and not others?

I see more O frame than 1 frame 16's. I have 4 1/2 16 Parkers. The VH, my first, is the one frame. A GH, DHE, and 16 hammer are O frame. The DHE letters at 6lbs with its 26" barrels. I have the O frame and 34" twist barrels from a 16 hammer gun--no lightening cuts in that frame.

I just keep seeing the same guns over and over and over for sale on all the usual sights and dealers :rolleyes:

I think the best place to buy is here, from PGCA members. Can sometimes get lucky at a small time shop or Pawn shop

....but the good ones go very quickly.

You know what they say about he who hesitates...



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For some reason I am finding the tiny K on the lug and a tiny V in the space forward of the lug a lot in the 150xxx and lower 160xxx range.

Attachment 91682

Attachment 91683

Attachment 91684

Attachment 91685

and here is one with a tiny B on the lug.

Attachment 91686

Then back to a tiny K.

Attachment 91687

In the upper 160xxx range we begin seeing the gauge stamped on the barrel lug.

I had DelGrego restore my grandfathers/Dad's 16 ga VH about 12 yrs ago. All new wood built to my specifications based on being measured at Covey and Nye way back when. Ironically, I can't hit much with it. Not sure why but as it's a family heirloom, I can't let it go. So it just sits in my safe for the most part. I take it out every now and then to shoot skeet and after the first round with it, I revert to the GH 20.
One more story on this sweet 16. It killed my grandfather. Sometime during the Depression, my grandfather bought a farm in Bow New Hampshire. One weekend at the farm he was shooting hand trap with his boys. At some point when he fired the gun, on the recoil his thumb came back and struck his nose. He went home with what he thought was a headache and died the next morning of a cerebral hemorrhage. My dad inherited the gun and continued to hunt with it until his passing when it came into my hands. Having grown up with 16's and being a family piece, I just couldn't get rid of it. By then the stock was pretty punky and beat up so after being measured I drove to Del Gregos shop, met with Babe and Lawrence jr and had them do a complete rebuild. Picked it up a yr later. The rest of the story i stated above. Oh the memories though.....

Allen, bring it to Addieville next time we all meet there... I'd like to see if I can hit anything with it... no disrespect intended my friend.





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Dean, I will bring it. And you're welcome to shoot it to your hearts delight. I haven't figured out how to post pics on this site so I'll email some to you separately.

May I share them here?





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Sure

Sure, for the record it is a 16 ga VH with 28 inch barrels on a #1 frame. Ser # 221866. Mfg date is 1927.

By all means Dean. Its a 16 ha vh on a #1 frame. Ser nbr 221866 as best I can read.
Dean, the 4 gents that I shoot skeet with and bird hunt with and I are planning on shooting sporting Clay's at Addieville on Jan 20. You and anyone else is welcome to join us. If you come, I'll have the 16 on hand.

Dean, I emailed pics to you. If you want pics of the inside of the frame and barrel flats, Ill take some more and send.

I just purchased one ata gun show this weekend. The lop is a bit short and it needs the second barrel opened up but they chime nicely. This 1909 specimen is just under six pounds. I am so excited to get it fixed up and then to the range.
It’s a vh. I also have a 1920vh 12 gauge on a 1 frame.

Scott, have you even shot it yet? Why do you need to open the second barrel? I’m presuming you mean the choke?
If it’s too tight for your purposes why not use spreader loads in that barrel and keep the gun the way it was made?





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Dean,
It has IC and a really tight full second barrel. I want it to be my go to bird gun so opening up the second choke is much more if a desireable solution vs the spreader loads when I would only need that shell for the second Barrel.

I'm just thinking of an all-around upland bird gun when late season birds often flush a lot farther out and that tighter choke becomes invaluable on those shots.





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Agreed! But I also have a VH 12 on a 1 frame. It has modified and full chokes which is a great late season pheasant gun. I’m in Idaho so I primarily hunt chukars and Huns.

I don't have any experience with chuckers, but open/tight chokes for Huns has served me really well. It's also a near perfect choke combination for wild Bobs on the prairie...if 35 years of successfully hunting them is an indicator. I often have to change out shells depending on the conditions and when a pheasant might be lurking about. Has changing shells in one barrel caused me to miss some opportunities -- occasionally -- but it's also allowed me the versatility to match conditions when they change. AND, I still have the originality of the gun.

You know your shooting and your needs best, but as someone posted here in one of the (many!) threads that included a discussion of opening chokes: you can't add the metal back after you've opened the chokes.

I have 2 that are choked open and tight. Both shoot great. That is a good combination. I also have 1 that is full and full. I also enjoy shooting straight away targets with it. The targets just turn to dust. I considered opening one barrel. Glad I didn't.

Good grief guys! :)
First off I am not looking to turn targets to dust as I stated, this is for upland bird hunting! I can also match your 35 year’s experience and not on pen raised birds. Trust me, a full choke is not required on Bobwhites!!! Thanks gents!