Another Damascus Horror Story...
 

Guy's this was just posted on another forum in a thread about the safety of Damascus shotgun barrels. What do you think?


"35 years ago or so I worked part time for a gunsmith.One day a fellow in his late 60's or ealy 70's brought in a damascus barreled side by side with a broken hammer spring on one side.His grandson was with him.My employer refused to work on it. The guy really didn't like this and said he had been shooting that gun since he was a young man.Well he went to a succession of gunsmiths,at least 5,til he found one that would fix his favorite shotgun.About a year or so later the grandson came in with a different repair.My employer asked about the old man and his shotgun.The grandson said that the left barrel gave out the next time he went duck hunting.Cut his hand off at the wrist almost like it had been done with a saw.Back then an ER was a couple of hours away from where they were hunting.He said that took all the starch out of his grandpa and that he passed a few months later.The trouble with damascus barreled guns is that the first time is the only time you have trouble with them."

Typical story told by someone who heard it from someone who wasn't actually there. A Damascus barrel explodes there for all Damascus barrels are bad, blah, blah, blah...

There is not a single fact recited in that story by which its truth can be investigated. The first thing a BS artist does is to make sure his story has nothing by which an investigator could find out the guy is lying. If he worked in a gunshop, he would know the town, the name of the gunsmith; all of which are conveniently omitted.

So the usual concocted story has some unverifiable "facts" to justify an unwarranted conclusion. This conclusion is that a damascus barrel just ruptures catastrophically without any prior indications. I suppose all barrels can do that, but posters here have shown enough photos of bulged damascus and fluid steel guns so that any reasonable person knows that his conclusion that all damascus barrels fail in that manner is nonsense.

I am not an expert in Parkers or guns in general, but I do know that many of these gun chat forums are sheer nonsense and as cocktail hour(s) drag on, the BS gets deeper. This PGCA forum, L C Smith and a few other moderated forums where the posters generally know each other and who is full of it and who is reliable, are the exceptions in a vast sea of internet drivel.

As an aside, there is some site for gun talk called a campfire cracker barrel. I think it should be renamed to beer barrel.

I think Bruce about said it all.
In my time with Parkers and other older SXS shotguns I think we've seen about as many fluid steel catastrophic failures as Damascus catastrophic failures.... which proves nothing either way.

Such stories are true and the word should be spread across the land as it had been before. We should put a something to this effect on the PGCA website:

Damascus and Twist barrels are dangerous, guns so equipped are worthless paperweights, especially anything stamped Parker Bros. Although you know this is a dangerous gun your heirs may not. You want to avoid any future harm. Fortunately for you, the owners of these dangerous and junk guns there are a few folks who simply want to admire the work of the artisans who built them. We provide a proper and safe disposal service and we will pay a small fee plus shipping to prevent these dangerous relics from hurting you or your loved ones. If you own such a gun contact any of the following PGCA members for an evaluation and disposal instructions. :)

Pete,

Please have them all shipped to my home address... :)

my parker 8 ga may blow up tommorrow but shes swallowed up to as much as 3 ounce loads without a whimper.....and its damascus....thanks for theinfo and story on damascus..... charlie

I took damascus DH 12 out phez. hunting yesterday. Made in 97. Rolled up 10 shells and labeled dam. 7.5. Took a limit of 3 roosters and no arms. First time hunting with dam. gun. Sure was fun letting her work again. We won't wait another 50 years to go again. Our phez. numbers are low so I think she brought good luck.

The Brits have shown ever since the introduction of fluid steel that their Damascus or Twist steel guns can be reproved by being able to withstand proof loads which are much in excess of ordinary game loads and are marked accordingly. Perhaps we should have a proof house on this side of the pond as well. JMHO.

Best Regards, George

A proof house here? Unless it was mandated by the gummint I don't think we'll ever see one. I for one, would never subject any of my guns, Damascus or fluid steel to the extremes that a proof house might. I don't think in the ten or fifteen years I have remaining to shoot and hunt I could ever equal the stress using 7,500 p.s.i. loads I put upon my guns that one visit to a proof house would. Thanks, but no thanks.

i will be proofing some guns on jan 1st :rotf:

Good idea George :)

July 27 1895 Sporting Life
Call for a Government Proof House
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL2518019.pdf

To my knowlege Paul Harm is the only one on this board with personal, first-hand, experience with failure of a damascus barrel and, I remember the facts correctly, that was due to a re-load that would probably have blown-up just about any barrel; fluid, twist or damascus. Paul, you out there?

Paul earlier said it was an inadvertant substitution of smokeless for black, PB I think it was. That is a well known blower-upper.

You are correct, Bruce. I shot with Paul a few weeks after the incident. Nasty wounds, indeed, but he was not missing a hand nor were ay bones broken. It certainly did not effect his abiliy to clobber clay birds, that's for sure.

You would think it could make a guy flinch a little !!!!:shock:

Well, I blew one up years ago. Yesiree, 'bout 17 years old (back about '58) and got tired of cleaning all that old black powder residue outta my Belgium muzzleloader. Decided those old men didn't know all the stuff claimed. So I jest poured 'bout the same amount of Red Dot down that sucker. Dove came whistling by 'n that's 'bout all I remember. Never did find the breech area. Never have heard high frequencies again (kept me outta Vietnam). Never do THAT again.

Most of the guns I shoot are damascus and I have complete faith in them. Guess they'd stand a whole lot more pressure but as mentioned earlier I keep a 7,500 psi or less cap on it. Only benefit of going to higher pressures is to cycle automatics--sure don't gain anything else.

If I remember correctly, Paul's handload was PB instead of BP and he had shot the gun three times using those shells until the fourth shell which did the trick, and I think he said that pressure was around 28,000 to 30,000 psi. Now that friends is a Hot Load.....! Eric

Joe, what, a person taking personal responsibility for something foolish he did! Should have known a Texan would cowboy up and admit it.

How is that G 16ga working out for you, Joe? Only two more months of quail season down there.

Eric, that's about 2 times the Parker proof load for the gun.

Got a bunch of us going hunting in SW KS next week. Picking up east coasters at Wichita. Annual Friends of Charlie ( "FOC'ers") event. I saw clouds of pheasants last month when I was there and hope to put all the FOC'ers on birds again, never seen so many in Kansas as last month and rivaled anything I had ever seen in SoDak even in the 70's. Last year was highs of 10 and 12 inches of snow, looks a lot better this year with this global warming thing working out so well.

PB or BP? It's tough to be as reloader if your are dyslexic

Here's a REAL damascus horror story... An aquaintance of mine in Maine was at an auction a couple of weeks ago and watched a 20 ga DH with 28" damascus barrels, showing virtually no wear, and a SSBP sell for $2,300. What made it horrible was he couldn't get his cell to work and so he couldn't reach me to ask me how much I'd pay for the gun. Not THATS a real horror story. Hell, flesh will grow back but how many 20 ga D-grades with long damascus barrels and SSBP's are floating around?

That's how it happens sometimes Jay. Where in Maine? It can't have been one of the major auction houses in Maine - must be a local town auction.

Small local auction - way off the grid.

Bruce, that 16 G is doing just fine. As you remember, it's on a #1 frame (damascus) and weighs in at 6/11. A tad heavy for a subgauge but handles well and has good momentum. Let's see.....I've had the gun cleaned (guts were totally gunked up with dried grease), put back on face, bores honed, chokes opened, and three new engraved screws for the floorplate. All the work by David Yale. Got waaay more in it than market value but hey, it's a good 'un. I took it hunting yesterday along with Mike Shepherd and we had a fine day. Didn't try to do a lot of damage to the birds but saw some great dog work. It was a "Parker 16" day for us: Mike shot his VH 0 frame with black powder loads in brass hulls. Me? just plain ole RST's in the GH.

Bruce, something bad is happening to the quail throughout Texas. There's a die off in many areas and it is not due to weather or food. Probably some disease. It's sudden and widespread. Many regions in August and September reported large numbers of birds and today not a one can be found. Our ranch southeast of Lubbock has suffered this fate. Yesterday morning we hunted my cousin's ranch north of Alanreed (70 miles east of Amarillo) and I'd call the numbers very poor. Mike's country north of Clarendon (65 miles southeast) is still quite good but he's got a concerned frown on his forehead. Dunno. The dean of Texas quail researchers, Dale Rollins, is frantically trying to identify the problem. One possibility is West Nile Virus. Sorta makes sense. Stay tuned.......

Heading to southwest Kansas in January? You need a gun bearer? Or a fairly decent beater?

Here's the results of yesterday. Oh, we only shoot cock birds. Took me a long time to teach Mike to discern sex in 1/100th of a second but he's getting pretty good now.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...p/IMG_2674.jpg

The fact that Pauls gun survived more than one round at that pressure is a tribute to the strength of the gun and a corroborates Sherman's testing. Sounds like he's a lucky guy.

Nice picture Joe!

That IS a sad story Jay.:crying:

Indeed. Truly tragic, in fact. Hoping one of my benevolent Parker brethren will take pity on me and offer me a similar gun at a reasonable price.......:rolleyes:

Jay that was not even close to a reasonable price, that was a steal :shock:
Eric

Oh, I know and I would never expect one of our brothers to part with such a treasure at such a low price.

"Opening Day" would know..... :whistle:

Joe Woods, thanks for the update on Texas quail. Texas quail shooting is a whole culture from the Panhandle to Kingsville and you folks take it seriously. Quail numbers are on the increase up here, hopefully its very temporary in Texas and the problem can be solved.

The best thing the little 16 had going for it was that it was in unbutchered original condition. Sounds like its doing well by you. I had run a lot of Rem Action cleaner through it from externally but sounds like there was no better way than to take it apart and clean it.

Glad to see you shooting only the male quail. Folks may have thought I was joking but it can be done but just looking for the head and concentrating on only that target.

Best regards.

I think I see "two sides of the coin here" fellows!
 

I in part agree with George Lander, I shoot a Damascus 12 PH made in 1904- either with RST 1 oz. 2.5" shells or Rem STS or AA lite- 1 & 1/8 oz. 1200 fps or less 2 &3/4"- with the caveat that I had Master Gunsmith Brad B check it over carefully first. This is "in lieu" of a formal proof house, IMO!!

But I also am "reading into" Dean Romig's posting and if I am over-reaching, Dean please understand- BUT a Federal Proof House- wouldn't each and every gun be traced back by serial number and description to the owner who sent it in for "proof"? Could this also lead into the "tacit" gun registration and possible later confiscation the current Adm. at 1600 PA Ave- wants-

Besides the NRA American Rifleman article on the 1911-A-1 Colt and the CMOH awarded to those who used same in combat with Valor- another issue profiled Iain Harrison- former British SAS Airborne sniper- now involved in other shooting venues here- and his prized handguns, both defensive and match target- he had to turn in due to Parliament enacting such a measure after a madman used handguns to kill children at Dunblane-- Common sense, from my point of view, says few of us will saw off the barrels on a 12 Trojan and use same to hold up a 7-11 store-

Of course, we can always consider the "Plan B" brother Lester suggests- perhaps a nice widow in East Bumblebucky Heights has a 12 or 10 32" Damascus barreled Parker with a fishtail top lever that has been gathering dust bunnies under her sette. Were she to sent it to me for proper 'disposal', and just for the insured shipping costs, I would not only tip the UPS driver, but gladly enroll her in a Fruit of the Month Club or other annual gifting program- Does Harry & David still operate "out in Medford, Oregon" or like Lawrence Welk, is that now a thing of the past?:whistle::bigbye:

Francis, since you asked, you will be pleased to know that I have given your mailing and email address to Harry & David for fruit mailings and to Columbia Records for all special offers for Lawrence Welk and Lennon Sisters music.

Enjoy, and no need to thank me.

Indeed.:rotf::rotf::rotf::rotf:

Yeap I would know :crying: and I wish I could find deals like that..:banghead:
Eric

Well- "Aaah Wunnerful, Aaah Wunnerful"
 

Nice to have friends in the right places. The late Lawrence Welk and SD and pheasants- things that make our heartland great-- good luck with the winter season Roosters- about 1978 ish- after Christmas went to hunt for the week between the holidays with a USMC buddy in Manhattan, KS- balmy weather, just as we are having here now- snow, mud, lotsa milo and picked corn- bunnies, quail, some roosters (pretty spooky by then) and even had a female coyote charge me in a uncut milo field-

I thought it was a stray German Shepard at first- but my buddy who was behind me and couldn't safely shoot- yelled- "Yoteeee- shoot it- so I did (with my 12 ga. M12)- back then a female coyote was about $40 bounty, a male about $25- so our farmer host got the "dinero"-- He told us that after the bird season ended- maybe late Jan?? back then- they group hunted coyotes and foxes for the bounty money- organized drives, etc.:bigbye:

I don't doubt that it can be done but I know absolutely my shooting student Joe Wood can't do it. On those rare occasions he downed a bird I always knew it wasn't the one he was shooting at.

Best,

Mike

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Joe posted the pictures of the cock quail, so I thought he shot them. You mean you did? That scalawag! You mean he con't be trusted? Did he go out and buy dead quail?

Now Joe says that you are the shooting student and you call Joe your shooting student. Am I confused or am I being Texased?

Joe hasn't killed four Bobs total in this century. I bring him along to haul dog water, remove sand burrs from the paws, take pictures, and clean birds. He is actually the perfect guest on my lease.

Best,

Mike

Edit: Another good reason to bring him; He doesn't know anything about bird dogs and so he thinks mine are great and brags on them.

Nice to know you're loved and needed, eh Joe??!:rolleyes:

For those of you who have outgrown their training wheels, sometimes I feel like a Shmoo in Little Abner......jest don't get no repect 'n git kicked around.

P.S. 'n I got a powerful better nose than Mike's worthless turd hounds. They're great pointing turkeys 'n armadillos cause they kin see 'em.