Parkers,others short LOP??
 

Hello All,
I find myself looking for 20 guage and 16 guage Parkers on the webb lately.
Are we that much larger today than our Grand Fathers? I know I am not but the LOP on most Parkers ,even with pads is 14" on less,sometimes much less.
I could never bring myself to remove a skeleton butt plate and replace it with a modern recoil pad.Do you just shoot these short LOP guns with slipon pads ?
Bill

I use a slip-on on all but my bigger 12 ga. Parkers.

Bill, Parker Bros. standard LOP was around 14" to 14 1/2". Guns could be ordered with any LOP the customer wanted.But the lower grades that were sold mainly to hardware stores and sporting outfits were "stock" guns.

We use slip on pads made by a variety of makers...I like Galco

Length of Pull
 

The "default" length of pull is 14 1/4 inch on Parkers. Hunting time was late fall - early winter in Parker's time, so guns had to fit over a heavy shirt or coat. Trap was a warm clime sport and guns with 14 3/4 lop are often found on 30 and 32 inch D grade guns.

A gun with a ssbp doesn't give you much choice, and they are really tough to master. Chances are that you will never find a Parker with ssbp that matches your lop, drop and pitch. Add to this that the ssbp slides around on all but leather faced shooting coats. I shoot with a friend that cuts a butt plate outline from 3M step anti slip, and sticks it on the butt plate. This works for skeet and trap, but does not mount well.

The Galco pad or equivalent is probably the best solution. It also has a built in fun accessory that requires a few thousand shots from a low gun at skeet and /or five stand to get the bad mount ratio below 1 in 10.

Best, Austin

You mean the step anti slip tape used on military aircraft ladders?? A shooter had better be wearing a padded shooting shirt for that stuff :eek:

Bill,
As has been already been said the standard LOP is around 14" but both longer and shorter LOP's were available. I have a 12 gage from 1905 that letters at 15" LOP and a 20 gage which letters to 15 1/4" LOP. All my other guns I use a Galco slip on pad for warm weather shooting.

Austin sent me some information collected on this topic and I'll post it for you here in this thread. I put it in a PDF file so you will need Adobe Reader to view it, I did that in an attempt to reduce its size and make it easy to read.

When I hunt ducks with Destry in the bitter cold I'd prefer 13-1/2" LOP if I could get it. Destry's #3 frame gun is short and works great with a heavy parka over neoprene chest waders over everything else you can get on. For normal shooting with not too many clothes on 14" to 14-3/8" works great for me. I don't like 14-1/2" or longer under any circumstances; too long.

I have an unaltered VHE 20ga skeet gun with a LOP of just over 13 inches to the checkered butt:eek: A slip on pad can get me over an inch more. I use the slip on pad on several guns as I prefer a longer LOP on a double trigger gun VS a single trigger gun.

I would never cut off a ssbp in favor of a recoil pad:nono:

LOP Table
 

Thanks, Robin

Austin

richard i know what you mean if a stock is to long and youve got a lot of clothes on...hard to get gun to shoulder quickly....guns with short stocks work best for me...you gotta be tough to follow old destrey hes one of the last true blue duck hunters...hes what i call a living legend....charlie

Having lost the equivalent of a small village's weight, Destry is going to be a living legend for a lot longer, I hope

short stocks work the best for me too, 13 5/8 ths in the sweet spot with my hunting guns, EN 10 ga 30 in., trojan 12 ga. 30 in., CHE 12 ga 30 in,trojan 20 ga 28 in. ,VHE 20 ga. 30 in. ,soon to have a str. grip restock for a NH 10 30 in. and 32 in. at 13 5/8 ths. you do have a lot of cloths on when duck hunting so short works for me. in summer i shoot a 14 1/4 gun or use a slip on pad on the short ones. i think most people can adjust to a short lop but would have a hard time to shoot a long lop :)

Probably get flamed for saying this but I believe LOP is the most highly over-rated measurement, especially for guns that are going to be used for hunting. First - shorter LOP's are much easier to mount than long LOP's, and second - as a season progresses and temps drop, layers increase and a gun that may have been a little short for the dove opener is just about perfect for November grouse. Like others who have responded to your question, I use a Galco if I have to add a little LOP (remember to take it off, you never want to leave them when the gun is stored).

One more thing (again, probably fodder for flaming): I believe most of the problems associated with a moderatly short LOP can be overcome with 3-4 boxes of shells and a trip to the skeet field. Focus on getting your cheek on the stock and you'll break birds. It's amazing what you can overcome with a little practice.

The range is open: flame away!

Jay, I think you have a point. I can shoot a gun as long as my thumb knuckle isn't up my nose. LOP isn't a factor of hieght or arm length, but of distance from where the gun is mounted to the cheek bone and there is a lot of flexibility there. On the old Parkers with not untipical DAC of 1&3/4" and DAH of 3", the further back you place your face, the greater the DAC and the harder it is to have a "head down" view of the rib.

My Parker 10 #3 frame is 13 3/4 LOP which for me is a little short by about 1" my biggest ploblem is the drop of the comb compared to my other guns there is about 3/4 more drop.

Steve

I've got a buddy that decided he needed a fitted gun so he drove up to TC and made an appointment with Brian B. He ended up ordering a Spanish gun with a long, straight stock. He shoots pretty well on clay birds with a mounted gun but he can't hit a grouse unless the bird is sitting in a tree. I've watched him and the problem is obvious: he has to push the gun WAY forward before he can shoulder it and as the season progresses the further he has to push the gun away. He always looks like he's climbing on the gun and ends up with a pizz poor mount.

As long as your thumb doesn't pound your nose the stock isn't too short.

One of the great advantages of the Galco pad, especially when shooting clays, is it spreads recoil over a greater area. This sure reduces the felt recoil.

Men today are only slightly taller, but clearly much heavier, with a thicker face, chest, and waist. A thicker chest increases the effective length of pull; a thicker face moves the eye upward from the comb and to the left, away from the rib (for a right handed shooter) increasing the need for 'cast off' to move the eye back in line with the rib.

24 year old Union soldier in 1860 - 5’ 8” and 143.5#

22 year old American soldier in 1955 - 5' 8" and 150.2#

50th percentile for American 25 year old men in 2002 - 5’ 10” and 168#

All US men 20-74 years in 1960 - 5’ 8” and 166.3#

All US men 20-74 years in 2002 - 5’ 9 1/2” and 191#

Yes! Thank you Jay. I also think that arm length is not as important as the vertical distance between where the stock nests into the shoulder and one's eye plane. I personally like the Churchill method where you don't drop your head at all when you mount the gun, but keep it upright instead, following the target all the while. I'm only 5' 4-3/4" these days, having 'shrunk' 1.75" over the years so now fully qualify as an official 'sawed off runt of the litter/Neanderthaloid', but I like guns with 2-3/4" to even 3" of DAH because when I bring them up I don't have to drop my head one bit to have a perfect view right down the rib... I also don't have to try to look through the greasy upper left out-of-focus corner of my glasses as I do when I drop my head way down to the stock of a flat dimension gun. The biggest thing I have to adjust to is making sure to blank overhead oncoming and any rising bird or I'll shoot way behind them. If I can see the bird when I shoot those kind of shots I'm guaranteed a miss. When I start missing, I stop and think "what would 'Robert do here?' then get my feet right, my hands right, my arms and head right and try again and I always do better immediately. Back to these basics works every time. I'd like to see a list of measurements folks can make of the distance between their shoulder pocket and eye plane, their height, and arm length somehow. I think the preferred LOP may have more to do with ones neck length and head confirmation/size than anything else. I just stood in front of a mirror and measured 10" from the approx middle of my shoulder pocket and my eye plane. Try it; is that long for short guy like me??

Well said, Richard. Folks today spend way too much time worrying about stock dimensions and way too little time shooting. It's a shotgun, not a rifle! Just shoot the darned thing! Always practice skeet with a low gun--never pre-mount. Pretty soon these shorter stocks with a tad more drop starts to feel pretty good.

That was the best advice anyone ever gave me - it made a huge difference in my scores. Second best piece of advice was to ask for a delayed release. (Ask you average trap-boy and he'll probably look at you with a blank stare). By shooting with a low gun and a delayed release the game becomes one of hand-eye coordination, kind of like throwing a ball to (at) someone who is running.

Low Gun
 

Thank you Jay and Joe. I shoot trap from a mounted gun, but shoot skeet and five stand with the butt on my hip at the call. Bring the rib to the bird and shoot; as long as the gun is not too high or too long, dimensions are not critical. I often see high house 7 break before the butt touches my shoulder.
I also have a comment on Drew's medical statistics. I was waiting to square up after my last physical, and saw my chart on the counter. I am 5 ft 9 , 205 lb and obese in the data base.

Best, Austin

My sincere "thanks" to all that replied or commented on my question about the LOP on the vintage shotguns.I personally shoot gun down on everything except maybe trap targets thrown from the left or right of me in sporting clays.This is how I was taught 60 years ago and I also shot International Skeet in my youth.
It gives me great pleasure to have an observer ask "Who is the Gentleman on the squad " when he spots my side by side in the rack of o/u and autos.
Even better yet when some shooter asks me "Why don't you shoot a real gun",then I beat him by 10 targets or as many whitewings.
I had rather break 10 out of 25 with my Parker or Ithaca than run a straight with anything else.
Looking forward to shooting and meeting many of you in April.
Bill Faulk

Austin? ...obese?? :shock: Not even close! And I thought you to be 6 ft or so... just my impression I guess.