Federal Game Shok 12ga 2 3/4" in 1926 Trojan
 

Anyone used these in their Parkers on Pheasants, and if so how did they do? Seems like they would be fine for use in my Parker Trojan #2 frame. DE is 3.19 They also do a 1 1/8 oz load at 1250, and 3.22 DE.

12 Gauge 2 3/4" 5 & 6 shot.

Dram Equivalent 3.19
Shot Type Lead
Velocity (fps)1220
Shell Length 2.75"
Ounces of Shot 1-1/4 oz.

Seems like a safe load in a gun such as mine... a couple pics of the Shotgun. Appears to be in pretty good shape for a 94 yr old gun.

thanks

I think that just about everyone, including me, would recommend RST low pressure loads in a 94 year old gun. Generally, it is not the metal that people worry about in guns of this age, it's the head of a 94 year old stock. Walnut, or for that matter any wood, of that age tends to become more brittle as it ages. If it is oil soaked, that makes the situation that much worse. Most would say to be gentle with that old wood. The load that you mention on the surface appears to be a lighter load with reasonable velocity, however, its psi is probably up around 10,000 psi or more. Remember, it's not the velocity but rather the pressure per square inch that the load generates that fractures that old stock wood in the head or wrist of the stock.

Understood, so where can you get information on pressure?

It's funny, but depending on who you talk to.... Some talk about DE being important, some weight of shot/velocity, some talk about pressure, which is the hardest to get info on normally.

From a technical perspective, I have a hard time understanding why/how a 1250 fps load of 1 1/8 shot can have such a different pressure from a 1200 fps load of same weight, although I know it's possible looking at load data.

I have only shot RST's out of my AH Fox Philly gun, but was hoping that in this Trojan, which is definitely a but more bulky build I could get away with up to 1250 fps in a 1 1/9 oz load.

Be real curious to know what pressure levels are like in these federals....

Jerry is correct in one sense that the head of the stock is most at risk but not from pressure. It's from excessive recoil. Pressure has nothing to do with recoil. Personally I think the 1 1/8 load using 7 1/2's would be all you need Joseph and I'd stay away from the 1 1/4oz load. That's pretty stiff. Buy some 1 1/8oz trap loads with good hard shot. That would be a 3 dram load @ 1200fps. More than enough to kill a bird.

This is just a small sample of what I am talking about from the hogdon site. All three are 1 1/4 oz loads from same hull, all with 1220 velocity, but the pressure ranges from 7,900 to 10,300. I have yet to run across any 1 1/4 oz loads at 1220 velocity that was over 10,500. More than I want really.

GAUGE: 12
Lead Shot 1 1/4 oz.

Hodgdon Universal CCI 209M Rem. SP12 25.5 7,900 PSI 1,220
Hodgdon Universal Fed. 209A Fed. 12S4 24.0 10,300 PSI 1,220
Hodgdon Universal Fio. 616 Fed. 12S4 26.0 8,900 PSI 1,220
Hodgdon Universal Win. 209 Fed. 12S4 25.2 8,800 PSI 1,220
Hodgdon Universal Win. 209 WAA12F114 25.5 9,400 PSI 1,220

So 1 1/8 at 1250 fps preferred over 1 1/4 at 1220?

I do have some federal Ultra target loads that are pretty close to what you described.

I repeat- 1 1/8oz at 1200fps is all you will need. The Federal target loads should do fine as long as they are 7 1/2 or 6.

For a 12ga Daryl is right, the best load you can shoot would be a High end trap load. 3-1 1/8-7 1/2. I like AA or Federal paper ,as long as 7 1/2 works for the bird you are hunting.

Joe have you had your barrels measured by someone qualified to do so to determine the critical measurements needed in order to determine what type of load may or may not be safe to shoot in your gun. In my mind if this has not been done you will never be able to determine what is truly safe to shoot in your gun.

I don't know anyone around me that even does that..... The gun appears to be in excellent shape, still very tight, very little metal wear, etc. Just looks like it's been held a bit, because of way the patina on the receiver has developed.....

All the more reason to proceed with moderate loads. Randy gives good advice. Maybe another member your area could help with inspection.
Good luck.

Joe,
Here is Parker recommended load data for your 12 gauge.
Good shooting.

While the outside appearance of your gun being original may lead you to believe the barrels have not been altered that is not always the case. I would urge you to consider having the barrels measured. I see that you are from the St. Charles, MO area so maybe a member can reply with information on a gunsmith in your area that could measure your bores. You might also consider going to the home page and looking in the Parker FAQ's section and then search under "need a gunsmith" which is a section devoted to gunsmiths the members have used and would recommend. You might find someone there.

I have looked through that gunsmith section a couple times now, no one near St Charles MO, that I have seen.... What measurements are you concerned with?

Chamber length, bore diameters, minimum wall thickness measurements (MWT) at juncture of forcing cones and end of chamber, MWT at end of forcing cone, MWT at 9" from breech, and also the MWT at any spot forward of the measurement taken at 9" from the breech. You may want to search the forum Joe as there has been a lot of conversation on this topic over the years.

Chambers as measured them are 2 5/8th it appears. Not 2 3/4" like my Ithaca NID. I could be off by that 1/16th, but measurement I got was 2 5/8th.

It was my understanding, Trojans had 2 5/8th or 2 9/16th chambers, yet are fine to shoot 2 3/4" shells.

Yes, the 2 5/8" chamber length is fine for 2 3/4" ammo.

Barrel wall thickness at the points Randy indicated would be my primary concern to know before shooting any of these old guns with any load. A lot can and often does happen to them in a hundred years or more.
A $100 Manson gauge is a great investment if you can't find anyone nearby that is qualified to make the measurements for you. Lots of info on the site on the best way to use one. Best investment for safety and peace of mind IMHO.

I don't know where this notion started that larger and faster loads are better. I grew up in a fishing village of subsistence living. Preferred shells were low-base 1 1/8 because of cost. I doubt those gunners, mostly relatives and all of them poachers at one time or another, knew their shells were making better patterns than the more expensive "high brass."

I didn't know myself until I started competitive shooting in the big city. Consider, too, these fishermen could shoot, knew their limits, no iffy shots, always retrieved what they hit regardless of the time it took from a hunt, and their waterfowl were the heaviest kind from harbours and tubs at sea. A lot of what I see today sickens me.

I agree, but as with most things this day, faster = better.

Would love to find just nice shooting 1 1/8 oz 1200 fps loads, that I didn't have to reload myself. You can find em in target loads. I use the Herters low recoil target loads for busting clays all the time.

But finding #6 or #5 hunting loads that are low pressure, and 1200 mv or less is hard, RST is about the only place for those, and by the time you pay shipping, they are not cheap..... Although, it's the route I go unless I load my own.

Maybe you could help by telling us what is your quarry. King has it right. Bigger is not better and RST would have anything low pressure you would need.

I've killed a load of birds from quail to Canada geese and in between. Focus more on learning your gun and don't obsess on bigger and faster loads.

I am headed to Montana in Oct, and hope to have time to do a little pheasant hunting. We are on a Mule deer hunt, but when we tag out usually get in a bit of bird hunting. So, #6 1&1/8 - 1&1/4 1200 fps load is what I was thinking.

I can get a wall thickness gauge from Brownells... I may just pick one up, wouldn't be a bad thing to have around.

And yes, if I don't find anything else I am comfortable shooting out of the gun, I'll be making another order with RST.

BTW, ordered the Manson Wall thickness gauge from Brownells....

I have enough vintage shotguns I'll have some use for it, and keep it with me when considering the purchase of new guns.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the importance of making sure the stock is tight to the receiver. They can come loose from use and from wood shrinking with age. If the stock is not tight to the receiver the receiver jackhammers the stock with each shot regardless of the load used.

Everything is still nice and tight on this gun... I think I am ok there.

I honestly doubt there are any issues with it, but will check on as much as I can. I have already shot some low recoil herters out of it on clays. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear the gun was a lot newer than 1926 DOM.

Joe I like to play around on the skeet field and the wobble trap with those Herters you mentioned. They will break targets off the wobble trap at quite the distance and out of my 34" guns they sound more like a 410.

No doubt, I barely feel them out of this trojan.... Weighing in at 7lb 10 oz it's like shooting a 22 rimfire. :D

Joseph, there's a "knack" to measuring with the Manson Wall thickness gauge. The directions provided are hard to follow, but after reading some suggestions on this site, I have been able to get the same numbers from both my Manson and Hosford gauges. You'll be glad you invested the money, but be sure you use it correctly.

DON'T JUMP ON ME, JUST PASSING THIS ALONG.
 

From a couple of sites. I have always heard this rule and I follow it.

"According to W.W. Greener in his book "The Gun" a shotgun should weigh 96 times the shot charge.

Or 96 X 1 1/8oz.= 108 oz. = 6lb. 12 oz., that is for a upland bird gun.

For ducks a much heavier gun will be wanted."

"Greener wrote that gun should weigh 96 times its intended shot charge to properly absorb the recoil. According to Greener, therefore, a 20 gauge firing 7/8 once of shot should weigh 5 ¼ pounds while a 20 made for an ounce of shot should weigh 6 pounds. A 12 for 1 1/8 ounces of shot would weigh about 6 ¾ pounds; a gun for 1 ¼ ounce loads (which were considered quite heavy in Greener’s day) would weigh 7 ½."

Of course this is for a gun in good shape. All of the guns I shoot have had the stock removed and the head checked, oil removed if it exists, and repaired if necessary.

My Trojan weighs in at 7lb, 10oz. It's a tank, and heaviest SxS I own, the NID I have with same length barrels weighs exactly 7lbs.

I use that exact Federal load and have for over 30 years on Parkers. Great . I recommend it.

A 1 1/8 oz and 3 dram load has been the Parker standard 12 ga load for 140 years. If your Parker is now so infirm that such loads cannot now be used comfortably , I would relegate the gun to wall hanger status.

We have a "Thumbs Up" button in the lower right to say "Thanks" to a post we agree with but I can't seem to find the "Thumbs Down" button to say "No Thanks" to a post we don't agree with.

My point is that it's not about the barrels or the frame being infirm - It's about the wood which is anywhere from 75 to 145 years old and most likely will suffer in one way or another from such pounding... even if it is only the 1 or so boxes of shells fired at wild pheasants each year.





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I am not interested in any guns with decrepit wood.

Not decrepit wood. Pair of CHE 16 gauges.

I’m not either but sometimes some of us have to “settle” if we want the gun for all of its other attributes... and we need to shoot them.





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Unfortunately, sometimes you don't know until it breaks.

Punch the numbers in here and you should find faster at the muzzle means little at 30 yards plus....which is were it counts....

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...otgunning.html

You boys would shudder if you looked in my ammo cabinet.

I bet I got some of that magnum stuff some where on the shelves....charlie