Pressure question Damascus barrels
 

So I have a short 10. I want to start using smokeless powder for skeet shooting and hunting with bismuth. I am seeing a lot of the recepies use powder that no one makes anymore. So what is the safe pressure I should stick under for a Damascus barrel from a parker made in 1884? It is in mint condition and I would like to keep it that way yet still enjoy it on a few goose hunts.

Just for reference, RST pressure for their 10ga 2.62” Lite, 1-1/4oz loads is 5500 psi, about half of Parker service pressure limits.

What are the service pressure limits for the parker Damascus barrel 10ga? Once I have that then I should be able to find the recepies for using modern powders .

By use of the search function you should be able to find the answer to most of your questions. There is also a thread on the 19 gr. Red Dot load in which a member sent it to Tom Armburst and had it tested and posts the results. Also check Pete Lesters short 10 loading thread in the reloading section. The sticky thread above this post.

Here you go

So I'm gathering from that , that 10,000psi and under is a safe load for the Damascus barrels from 1884? If so there are lotsa load recipes using materials still made and available from retailers. That's exactly what I am looking for.

I disagree with your take on a blanket statement on what pressure is safe to use in a Parker.





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Ok. So this is exactly what my problem is. What is the safe pressure on a Damascus barrel parker shotgun? The gun looks like it has had less than a couple of hundred shells through it. I have had it mag particle tested. In my opinion it's in mint condition. So would someone like to answer? What am I missing? I have always understood components and recipes are based on pressure.

I'm not interested in a Recipe. Just want a pressure to stay under

What are the minimum barrel wall thickness measurements at strategic intervals along the lengths of the tubes?

Each gun is different.... and why would anyone want to shoot a maximum load anyway?





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I think 8,000 psi is a good max for these old guns in 10 and 12 gauges.






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I'll have to measure it when I get home. And the answer to that question is to shoot geese. We have the 14 to 18lb greater Canada geese that most people down south don't get to see as they stay up here all winter. The black powder is not burning well at -20°C so I want to know what was the safe pressure these old guns work at?

Ok thanks. Just saw your last post.

There are a few members in southeast New Hampshire who are really into their short tens and all sorts of waterfowl. They mostly load their own ammo and really know what they’re doing and can give you advice you can take to the bank. I’m certainly no authority on this but they are. Pete Lester, Scott Kittredge, Frank Cronin, Bill Janelle... can one of you come on and help this member?





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If black powder is doing poorly at -20 C, I would think that some low-pressure smokeless loads might also do poorly...

Primer selection may also be important in extremely cold weather.





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I use longshot powder in the cold weather in my modern 10 ga shotguns. I have some load recepies for 2 7/8" shells that use it however the pressure is around 9000psi

You are the first to claim BP doesn't work well in cold weather. Years back when I was a died in the wool muzzle loader, I did a weekend rendezvous and it was -30F with a wind chill of a -70F on Saturday - the shoot day. No one complained of guns not going off or poor performance. I froze my behind off and it was the last winter shoot I did. Maybe it was your primers - I'd try Federals at the least, or maybe the ones made for BP - if they really are different. On another thought, I have about 50 DGJs, and reread them. I just read one of Sherman Bells articles about using nitro and BP to see how they compared to each other.. He measured pressures at 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12" down the barrel. He kept pressure down to BP pressure - 5500psi or less. He tried Blue Dot, 7625, and Clays keeping the velocity at 1250fps or less. Pressures were so close you could say they were the same. His favorite duck load was a 1 1/8oz of Bismuth, 16grs of PSB buffer, a Lage Uniwad and 24.5grs of 7625 in a Win hull and primer. #4 or 5s for ducks, #2s for geese. He had 1100fps and 5500psi one inch out from the breech. Maybe you could find some 7625 or send some of your shells in for testing. Precision Reloading does it. Good luck. Or just stoke it up with smoke.

Ya I sure would like some 7625. Do you know if they still make it? Because all the supply chain is telling me that it's a Dinosaur dead and gone but not forgotten lol.

For starters let me say that -20C is -4 F, you will find me at home these days in weather like that. When IMR 7625 was discontinued I settled on two bismuth loads for waterfowling, 1 1/4 ounce with 24 gr of Green Dot and 1 3/8 ounce with 24 grains of Unique. These loads have been tested with Remington hulls and Winchester primers with 9000 and 8800 psi respectively. I have had no problems with them in a variety of composite barrel 10's, Parker NH, Rem 1894, and two Lefevers. Again as others have told you every gun is different but I believe 9000 psi is safe in my guns given their barrels. These two loads are in the spreadsheet you can find in another thread. I believe if you use these loads in a Federal hull, which I often do, the pressure will be lower due to the fiber base wad. If you use Remington hulls be advised there are different styles, the emerald green ones have less room and can't be loaded with a fold crimp as you see in the recipe. I solved that problem by using a rolled crimp.

Thank you very much Mr Books, and everyone who commented. I will be hammering out this falls ammo shortly.
It's always easy to find A mix for a modern shotgun using components that are easily available, however a vintage shotgun with Damascus barrels is a different story.

Our Canada's run beteen 9 to 13 pound on average. Period correct loads in composite barrel guns are low velocity. My experience and observation has been #2 bismuth just doesn't get the job done, #1's and bigger are better as they have more mass and can penetrate to the vitals. #4 bismuth seems to work better than it should. Plenty of times I have been loaded with #4 for duck and a goose or geese suddenly appear with no time to change loads. I think they work because the #4 shot with more pellets has a better chance of striking the head and neck. If I was hunting the monsters you have I would go straight to bismuth BB in 1 3/8 ounce. There is a loading for it using Longshot that is sub 9000 psi with a fold crimp.

This forum has the best advise available on 2 7/8 inch 10 G loading. Tested loads actual experience.

William

Paul Harm- the shotgun primers sold as BP primers are a colder primer. Apparently modern BP rifles provide better accuracy with a lower brisance primer.

I didn't know they were a colder primer - I've always been told just the opposite, that BP primers were hotter to get the powder to go off. I've also been told they're just shotgun primers in a different package. Anyways we're not shooting rifles looking for a one hole group, but shotguns we just first want to fire a shell. If it were me, I'd go with the hottest primer I could find, like a federal 209A. JMHO. Good luck.

13 year ago data, but still good today I would assume

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

On another note I was just rereading my old DGJs, and in one, Sherman Bells I believe #12, about " Finding Out For Myself, where he tested Green Dot and BP. He did it so both loads had the same velocity, around 1225fps. They both had almost the same pressure - with in a 100 psi. He tested 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12"s down the barrel. It was the same at each distance. Here's the cool part. He made a magnum load with the BD, I don't remember exactly, but about a 1 3/8oz at 1400fps, if memory serves me correctly. Anyways, it was 10,000psi 1" out, but it very quickly went down to the light loads . I think at 3" out it was only 4000psi. He said he couldn't explain it, just reporting what he found. So if you're going to load BD at data that gives you 1200fps at a 1 1/8oz or so you'd be perfectly safe. He claimed [ in a different article that used BD for a different experiment ] that it seems like it was designed to replace BP. Just something to think about.

The load table from the Parker Story that Garth posted is in my opinion the correct approach and as a maximum service load and proof load is appropriate for a Parker shotgun with either composite or fluid steel barrels in as new condition. If barrels or chambers are honed thin or otherwise infirm then of course the situation is different.

If the stock is not in good shape then recoil should be reduced also unless those problems are corrected .

I agree with Bruce, but the only problem is many of the powders aren't produced anymore. I've always went by the thought that if it's a mild load in a 12ga, it's going to be less in a 10ga, even with a different wad and hull. All 10ga hulls are straight walled, so with mild loads I treat them all the same. JMHO, but pressures aren't going to change more that a couple of hundred psi if there's a slight difference in hulls. In the Alliant handbook, the same green Dot load in both the Federal and Remington hull have the same pressure. Should tell you something. I think a 10ga 1oz load is about as good as it gets. The shot column is so short there's way less shot deformation, and the shot string is shorter, so there's more shot at any given time in the pattern. Just use a 12ga 1oz load data. Did I say no recoil ? If one just has to go to those 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 oz loads the Alliant handbook shows Unique and Greed Dot with 7500 to 8800psi loads that should be good for our old SxSs. These are with our modern hulls that can be bought from BPI or Precision Reloading. We can use the old load data, but how many of us have those older hulls? All I have are the more modern Rem, Fed, and Win hulls. And they pretty much all look the same, and with slight adjustment can be all loaded the same. Oh, there's some slight differences in how high the base wad is, but that's only going to make a difference in total load height. That will make a difference is final crimp. I only shoot clay targets, with 1oz shells at lower pressures, so I sometimes forget some of you guys like more payload so your pressures could be quite a bit higher. I think if it's going to be a light load, then 12ga loads will work just fine. If heaver, then those two Alliant loads with those two powders will work. JMHO. Someone please pipe in if you find fault with what I said. Different opinions are always good.