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-   -   IS THIS WHY I MISS MORE WITH DOUBLES THAN AUTOS AND O/Us? (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28207)

Jerry Harlow 09-22-2019 06:57 PM

IS THIS WHY I MISS MORE WITH DOUBLES THAN AUTOS AND O/Us?
 
4 Attachment(s)
Having noticed that all of my shot patterns were way off when experimenting with Tungsten Super Shot at forty yards, I decided to buy laser bore lights in both 12 and 20 gauge.

So today I took out three 12 gauge guns and put them in a Caldwell Lead Sled to hold them stationary on a target at forty yards (my typical sighting in distance for turkeys). The results were horrible to say the least. I even rotated the laser bore lights to see if they were the culprit, but there was no change. I don't think the lasers are defective.

The first gun was a Parker VH with .040 left and .042 right in 30" barrels. The results were so bad I went and got another VH with .027 in both barrels. Again way off at forty yards from point of aim to where the laser indicated the center of the bore was. So I went and got a 32" Ithaca NID. Same bad results but the right barrel was the best of the whole lot. When I moved in to 30 yards thinking the barrels may have been regulated to a closer distance, the same bad results. Is this why I may have more misses with doubles than with single barreled sighting planes? Has anyone else tried this?

I once took an L.C. Smith to a shooting match (Turkey Shoot). I found out I had to aim at the top right corner of the target at 30 yards to center the pattern on the X in the center.

40 YARD PHOTOS
ITHACA NID RIGHT MODIFIED
ITHACA NID LEFT FULL
PARKER VH RIGHT FULL
PARKER VH LEFT FULL

Gary Laudermilch 09-22-2019 07:36 PM

I have a Robert Louis bore laser that I have used extensively and have come to trust it. The laser does not lie. That said, I think you might want to try mounting the gun to your shoulder with the laser installed. The results might be different. Testing barrels for regulation as you have done is quite different that learning point of impact from a shouldered gun but both are useful.

I had a VH that had terrible barrel alignment but have a PH that is pretty good. All of my repros (4) are very good. The best I have tested is a CSMC RBL 20.

Dean Romig 09-22-2019 07:41 PM

That’s pretty sad... I wonder how common that is.





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Jerry Harlow 09-22-2019 07:43 PM

The trouble is shooting at turkeys one aims as if shooting a rifle, so point of impact is critical. And if one is off by a little at forty yards while aiming and the center of the pattern is off by a couple of feet already, then it is a miss or a cripple, a disaster. I do not find that happens in single barreled guns as most shoot right on the money.

Jerry Harlow 09-22-2019 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Romig (Post 281913)
That’s pretty sad... I wonder how common that is.

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Very common I think. I tried three doubles today. All were bad. When experimenting with the TSS I tried a 20 VH and a 20 Fox SW as well as a VH 12. All were off except the Franchi 48AL in 20 was the only one that shot to point of aim.

Dean Romig 09-22-2019 08:30 PM

So much for POI regulation at the time of manufacture....?






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charlie cleveland 09-22-2019 09:31 PM

jerry i have known this for several years that a single barrel gun shoots to point of aim a way better than double barrels....thats why you must shoot on paper to see where it throws the shot on target...i have one parker ten ga that shoots 2 foot high at 40 yards bad off target....most of my guns the doubles do pretty good aimingat the breast and will put the load in the head area...charlie

Bob Jurewicz 09-23-2019 06:47 AM

What does it matter where the LASER points so long as the pattern goes to your "point of aim".
Bob Jurewicz

Dean Romig 09-23-2019 06:56 AM

That’s true Bob. There’s no alternative to patterning a gun to learn where it puts the majority of it’s shot charge.





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Harry Collins 09-23-2019 07:05 AM

The first thing that hit me when reading Jerry's post is this: Don't SXS barrels have a slight bend outwards from the direction the breech is pointing? Wouldn't the laser from the breach indicate a cross fire?

Daniel Carter 09-23-2019 07:31 AM

Does not a double have to be regulated to converge at a certain point? If so until that distance is reached and after it will be off. Something to consider.

Jerry Harlow 09-23-2019 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Jurewicz (Post 281929)
What does it matter where the LASER points so long as the pattern goes to your "point of aim".
Bob Jurewicz

When I patterned the guns with TSS the patterns were all not to the point of aim. That is why I bought the lasers. When I dove hunt I try to take a different gun every day, and when I turkey hunt I don't want to be remembering this gun right barrel shoots high and to the left, this gun left barrel shoots low and to the right, etc. I believe Parkers mostly were patterned at forty if my memory serves me correctly?

My point is that if I make a small mistake in aiming/shooting, and the gun's pattern center is off by two feet already as one of the guns was at forty yards according to the laser, one will surely miss.

Bob Jurewicz 09-23-2019 10:34 AM

I recently sold a very nice Ithaca Classic Double 28 GA that for me shot low. The new owner reported it shooting perfectly for him.
Bob Jurewicz

Garry L Gordon 09-23-2019 01:51 PM

Without legitimate sights, I'm not sure I understand how there can be a "universal" point of aim (one that would translate from shooter to shooter) for a given shotgun. The stock configuration is a major determining factor in where the gun shoots at whatever distance it was regulated for. Double shotguns are not meant to be aimed, but rather, pointed. Part of the difference in stock drops in older v. newer doubles has something to do with how shooters mounted guns at those different points in history (older shooters held their heads higher than more modern shooters). Add in different individual facial features (measurements) and it can get pretty complex.

I have some doubles that have a lot of drop. I have to consciously aim more than point them. I can't hit a flying bird worth a darn with them, but they work fine for squirrels and turkeys.

I've not had good luck with laser devices, but I'm sure mine were too inexpensive to have any sort of quality control.

I must admit I find this post confusing. The only time I've had issues with a double gun NOT shooting both barrels to the same point was when the barrels had been cut. My tests were all done "pointing" rather than aiming, though, so that's probably why I'm puzzled by all of this.

Frank Srebro 09-23-2019 02:34 PM

Jerry, as I read this the gun is held static and the laser is concentric with the bore at the muzzles. If that's correct then I question how your methodology translates to actually shooting said shotgun from the shoulder.

Your tests don't account for “barrel time” = milliseconds during which the muzzles rise while the shot travels down the bore. That begins at the instant of firing when the gun starts to recoil. Barrel time will vary with different velocities and thus the muzzle rises less or more before the shot emerges, depending on the shells being fired. And all that in turn affects the POI versus the "point of aim" just before firing.

Also, how about the torque/twisting effect when the gun is fired? Left barrel will have less sideways movement than right barrel (for a right shoulder shooter). Vice versa for left shoulder shooters. Again that will affect the POI.

Jerry Harlow 09-23-2019 03:10 PM

The guns were placed in a Lead Sled both for the targets with TSS, and also to find the center of the bores on three different guns yesterday. I understand that mounting a gun of different dimensions changes how well one shoots a particular gun, and when one finds a gun that they just can't miss with, it is wise to shoot it exclusively. The old saying is to beware of the man who only has one gun. He knows how to shoot it.

But I think many are missing the point that what good is a gun that has the center of the bores on each barrel that is three feet apart at forty yards and they shoot that way, as the VH with .027 in each barrel indicated? The 20 gauge Sterlingworth that I took last year to turkey hunt did not pattern to the point of aim at forty yards, so I knew on that gun if I took a shot at that distance, I had to aim almost a foot to the left of a turkey's head to center the pattern. But I don't know that on each gun and they will have different pattern locations at this distance apparently. But the closer in one gets the difference in the centering will be less extreme.

Old turkey hunters will say how did I miss that bird, I had it right on him. Maybe this explains some of it as we trust the guns too much to be regulated. If one looks at the NRA American Hunter magazine they will show the pattern of a gun and show how many shots hit each quadrant. But often the point of aim is way away from the center of the pattern. Not so extreme on single barrel guns.

p.s. I do aim at turkeys and deer and really try not to point, which pointing causes me to say "How did I miss that bird?".

Jerry Harlow 09-23-2019 04:22 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Since there seems to be some doubt about the lasers, I had to prove it to myself. I took the 20 SW that shot always to the right at 40 yards, and put the gun in the Lead Sled and inserted the laser. Sure enough the laser indicated it would shoot as it did, way off to the right. I also did the right modified barrel. Both were high but I would expect that to allow for the shot charge to drop at that distance. The laser was true in this case.

So my guess is these 20 gauge SW barrels are regulated to a shorter distance and the axis of the bores will cross perhaps at 30 yards. I can live with that because truly the 20 should be a 30 yard gun and I was stretching its capabilities with TSS. The ones I need to worry about and is why I cannot hit with them are perhaps those that are shooting as indicated by the lasers, low.

It may also explain why when I get a new double I can hit every clay bird with one barrel but with the same gun miss every bird with the other barrel, no matter at what distance I shoot them.

LEFT FULL 1ST PHOTO
RIGHT MOD 2ND PHOTO TURNED CCW FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON

Garry L Gordon 09-23-2019 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Harlow (Post 281968)
The guns were placed in a Lead Sled both for the targets with TSS, and also to find the center of the bores on three different guns yesterday. I understand that mounting a gun of different dimensions changes how well one shoots a particular gun, and when one finds a gun that they just can't miss with, it is wise to shoot it exclusively. The old saying is to beware of the man who only has one gun. He knows how to shoot it.

But I think many are missing the point that what good is a gun that has the center of the bores on each barrel that is three feet apart at forty yards and they shoot that way, as the VH with .027 in each barrel indicated? The 20 gauge Sterlingworth that I took last year to turkey hunt did not pattern to the point of aim at forty yards, so I knew on that gun if I took a shot at that distance, I had to aim almost a foot to the left of a turkey's head to center the pattern. But I don't know that on each gun and they will have different pattern locations at this distance apparently. But the closer in one gets the difference in the centering will be less extreme.

Old turkey hunters will say how did I miss that bird, I had it right on him. Maybe this explains some of it as we trust the guns too much to be regulated. If one looks at the NRA American Hunter magazine they will show the pattern of a gun and show how many shots hit each quadrant. But often the point of aim is way away from the center of the pattern. Not so extreme on single barrel guns.

p.s. I do aim at turkeys and deer and really try not to point, which pointing causes me to say "How did I miss that bird?".

Jerry, do you know if the barrels or chokes were ever work on? I assume Parker regulated gun barrels as it bored the chokes and established patterns. When I visited Connecticut Shotgun, Tony G. took me through the "factory" and showed me all of the various processes. I saw the barrels being tested and was told that they were adjusted if they did not hit in the same spot when tested. The honing rods (my word, I don't know the technical terminology) were longer than the length of the barrels and run through from the breech to insure concentricity. The barrels would not move on beyond this point unless they were regulated. It's hard for me to believe that Parker would have done much differently.

This is perplexing to say the least.

Dean Romig 09-23-2019 05:07 PM

I think we also should consider that the manufacturer, Parker, Fox, Lefever, etc., patterned these guns with a specific manufacturer of shot, powder, fibre wads, etc. and I think if our testing/patterning is to be considered relevant we must do our patterning with exactly the same components that were originally used by the manufacturer on a particular gun. And I know this is nearly impossible, so I think we can expect some varying POI's than what we hope to see.






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David Holes 09-23-2019 07:44 PM

I have patterned alot of different sxs's without a laser and have only had one that did not center the pattern, I have no idea why you need a laser to pattern a shotgun.

George Stanton 09-23-2019 08:16 PM

You have to let the gun recoil while being held in your hands to get accurate patterning. The gun recoils up and right and left before the shot leaves the barrels. All this was accounted for when they were made. They won't be regulated as well as a double rifle or an English best gun but they should be pretty good. Although I'm sure a few stinkers got through occasionally. And velocity and payload weight will change POI.

This applies to rifles too. Hold them how they'll be shot when sighting in. Shooting sticks, not holding the forend or fastening them to a lead sled changes POI.

Jerry Harlow 09-23-2019 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Holes (Post 282001)
I have patterned alot of different sxs's without a laser and have only had one that did not center the pattern, I have no idea why you need a laser to pattern a shotgun.

To each his own. I have patterned every gun I own. I keep the patterns with a description of choke/shot size/ounces of shot/etc. I bought the lasers to see why the guns patterned the way they did. And the laser confirms it for me that they are not shooting to point of aim in many cases of guns choked that one would think would have great centered patterns. I can't think a Parker VH with .042 in each barrel would have been a 30 yard gun. Some guns do, some don't and almost none as the distance grows. With I.C. at 20 yards it hardly matters.

It does confirm that with a side by side, at greater distances the centers of the right and left will cross at some point and so will the vertical between the top of the rib and center of the bore. Each right barrel will go to the left at longer distances, and each left barrel will head to the right at distances beyond the regulated point, and almost all patterns are going to keep rising at the greater distances. So it could be the dove or goose I miss with the right barrel at forty yards shot behind him, and the left if I miss may be way in front of him and only bring feathers in each case. Thus why I shoot my A5s a lot better than my doubles.

Sorry I submitted this.

Gary Carmichael Sr 09-24-2019 07:46 AM

On the contrary! I found it very informative, I was going to pattern several gauges at 40 yds, just have not gotten around to it yet, Gary

Mark Garrett 09-24-2019 08:18 AM

Try patterning the guns with lead , TSS shoots different POI than leads loads in the same gun .

There is a good thread over at gobbler nation about it, search for a guy that goes by "poor country preacher"

Garry L Gordon 09-24-2019 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Harlow (Post 282015)
Sorry I submitted this.

Jerry, Thanks for submitting your post! I think it got us all to think more deeply about the regulation of shotgun barrels. I absolutely understand why you thought to use the laser since you were shooting your guns more like a rifle at non-flying game. That seems very appropriate.

I hope you continue to experiment...and keep us posted.

Thanks again!

Daniel Carter 09-24-2019 09:38 AM

I agree with Mr Gordon, your post is food for thought. I will be doing my own testing this week on my guns to see if at different distances poi changes. Thank you for your post.

Gary Laudermilch 09-24-2019 11:26 AM

Jerry, thanks for initiating the subject of barrel regulation. It brought out much of what I thought it might.

Jerry Harlow 09-24-2019 11:28 AM

To answer a couple of statements.

When I shoot from the Lead Sled on a shooting bench I hold the grip and barrels/forearm just as if I am shooting at a turkey. The gun rises from the cradle when shot that holds it only for accuracy. The guns were not strapped down.

The loads were equivalent to high powered shells, 1 1/4 ounces in 12 gauge and 1 ounce in 20. So yes if the guns were patterned with say 1 1/8 and 7/8 with perhaps 1200 f.p.s. that may have made some difference. My thoughts were that guns extremely choked were built for longer distances, but if one shot them based on the belief that at forty yards they were killing machines, you would go home empty handed most of the time due to the pattern being way off at that distance. Faced with quick shouldering of a gun at geese or doves, even if it fits, one cannot remember to shoot to the left or right of a flying target based upon the pattern center.

charlie cleveland 09-24-2019 01:32 PM

i agree on your thoughts on how these guns sometimes just pattern terrible...charlie

Joe Graziano 10-11-2019 11:51 AM

I'm glad you brought up the topic of barrel regulation. However, shotguns are not pattern tested with lasers and a lead sled. That is for rifles. The resulting patterns are not reflective of how the gun shoots in your hands. There are plenty of pattern testing protocols you can google. I'd recommend following one of them and noting the results. You'll be standing, shouldering the gun as in the field and firing lead. This is why shotgunners spend or used to spend so much time and effort on fit. A shotgun may shoot for you differently than it does for others. Using lasers and a lead sled won't tell you much.

Mills Morrison 10-11-2019 09:14 PM

Well, now I have an excuse

Jerry Harlow 10-11-2019 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Graziano (Post 283119)
I'm glad you brought up the topic of barrel regulation. However, shotguns are not pattern tested with lasers and a lead sled. That is for rifles. The resulting patterns are not reflective of how the gun shoots in your hands. There are plenty of pattern testing protocols you can google. I'd recommend following one of them and noting the results. You'll be standing, shouldering the gun as in the field and firing lead. This is why shotgunners spend or used to spend so much time and effort on fit. A shotgun may shoot for you differently than it does for others. Using lasers and a lead sled won't tell you much.

Joe,

I think you missed the point that I was patterning the guns for stationary targets such as a turkey standing still at forty yards and shooting the gun as one shoots a rifle, and thus the lead sled to make sure I was holding it on the target (I did hold the gun as tightly as if I was shooting it by itself). The patterns were way off at that distance for most guns, probably indicating they were regulated for a shorter distance. So if I aim at the target, and the pattern is already off by quite a bit, and I pull it even slightly, I miss or cripple. So it is important to know exactly where the pattern is centered. I think next year I will laser each gun, shoot some patterns to confirm it, and then put a small taped on label to tell me that at forty yards for instance, this gun shoots six inches to the right at forty, four inches high at forty, etc.

On flying birds, some guns one shoots well, some not so good. I took the Fox AE Monday, got my limit on far too many shells. The next day I took a new to me vent-rib Model 12 Winchester, the first time I had ever shot it, and I shot twice as good as with the double.

Garry L Gordon 10-12-2019 08:23 AM

So, how accurate are those laser devices? Just curious. I got a cheap one to bore sight a rifle and it's terrible. It goes in the muzzle and with the gun secured I can put it in five times and get a different point of aim each time. It's like opening chokes from the muzzle, and if you don't get things aligned just right, you don't get concentricity. I am still puzzling over the idea that it is frequently the case that a gun made with such care as a Parker that the barrels would be mis-aligned with any regularity.

If I had more hair, I'd be scratching it more vigorously pondering this.:banghead:


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