Missing targets with black powder
 

Shooting clays with 2f black powder, ive loaded 1,11/8,11/4 square loads. Over the powder card followed by the felt wads. I pack,tamp each one separate.Paper with rollcrimp and brass with glued in over shot card. Shoot out of 2 different guns both vintage with tight chokes, 40 thous. I break very few targets , even on the skeet field I miss station 1,7 more then I break and the ones I do break are very light breaks. I pop in a smokess shell and break targets just fine. I shot a few at a board and they seem like a very open patterns but no holes blown threw, compared to the smokeless loads that are very tight. I’m thinking about using a shot cup? I’m not sure what I’m missing here?

I use a bunch of black powder 1 oz. with 3 drams of 1.5 Old Eysenford in my 12's and break as many clays as I do with smokeless powder. You may be suffering from a Gremlin in the brain and over leading the targets. Velocities are not that much different between the powders. I use it in 10, 12 and 16 gauge and they are very good performers. Patterns would generally be tighter with the plastic wads. Use the same leads with black and you should be fine. When I shoot I do find that it may take a few targets to get my brain in the groove and do miss a few targets on station 1 at skeet and on some long crossers on the clays course Keep at it and things will come together.

Andrew, it can be frustrating sometimes with black powder loads, but is very rewarding when it comes together. Eric, makes a good point, my first black powder shots I usually miss in front. I am always surprised that my lead is close to smokeless. I'll even miss in front with a flintlock.

I think we could help you more if you described the components you are using and the order. I have found(with help of others on this forum) that the wad is what can make or break a pattern. I also would spend some time at the patterning board, with some different combinations.

Don't worry, you'll figure it out. In clays or hunting, there is nothing better than a black powder double!

I realize you wanna shoot that vile black stuff , but if you break very few targets with it and you break targets just fine with smokeless the problem is solved use smokeless and forget the vile black stuff :rolleyes:

Andrew, you stated that you are using square loads with 2f powder.
I have found that square loads pattern better using 1f powder. If using 2f, I back off on the powder by 10-15% and patterns improve.
You did not say whether or not the cushion wads are lubricated or dry. I lighty lube mine with bore butter which helps to keep the bp fouling soft.
I also put an overshot card on top of the cushion wad to keep shot from embedding in the cushion wad.
Hope this helps.

Thanks. I never considered a card on top of the wad. I will try cutting back some also.
I wasn’t to Concerned about speed and leads to mess with my head but missing straight away and incoming targets at a short distance makes me think there’s something wrong with my loads.

As far as components , magtech brass, circle fly 11ga 1/8” nitro card, circle fly 11ga 1/2” no lube fiber wad
Chadditte paper, 13ga circle fly 1/8 nitro card, 13 ga 1/2” fiber wad.

Thanks Andrew that helps. Just for clarification it sounds like you are using fiber wads not felt wads. I have shot the exact same combination of components in the brass magtechs and it works okay.

The first thing I would do is cut those 1/2" fiber wads in half, but use both, one on top of the other. Those 1/2" wads are relatively heavy and push through the pattern. When you split them in two they break away faster.

I have been using lubed wads in brass shells, though I am not sure if circle fly is making them anymore. The only difference is(like Matt) I always put a overshot card on top of the wad so shot doesn't stick to the wad. I never use the lubed wads in the paper shells.
I think if you split the wad in two like I described above you paper shells should perform better.

When I am not using a square load and trying to get more velocity I do use felt wads. I use 2 - 1/4" wads and I will lube one of the wads for brass shells. You can buy them for 12 gauge or cut you own depend on what you need. They have some more give and may be something you want to try at some point. For 90% of my shooting I am using square loads by the way and I am stilling learning too.

There are lots of opinions on all of this and the best thing to do is try a few component changes and see what the result is. In my opinion, shooting a hammer gun with the type of shells it would have used when new is just too cool and very rewarding.

Keep us posted and good luck!

There is really nothing "vile" about black powder loads. Clean up is easy using just soap and water and only takes a few more minutes than with smokeless powder. I use Federal or Cheddite paper hulls and fire once and toss. (Roll crimp really looks smart and would be proper for vintage loads). Plastic hulls can be used but avoid plastic wads as they burn up and leave plastic in the bores. I prefer Old Eysnford 1.5 or 2 FG as the fouling is relatively light and stays soft. Easily shoot a 50 round clays course without having to patch the bores. Jay is on the mark about using a vintage hammer gun and paper hulls with black powder. Great shooting experience and just plain fun!

If you perceive it as “easy” that’s great and that’s your prerogative . And I perceive it as “vile” and that’s my prerogative . I only use the vile stuff in a period PA longrifle .

Sika, I am really sorry if I got you nose out of joint.
that was not my intention. I just see nothing wrong with black powder, it is just different and more traditional in vintage doubles and it really is a bunch of fun breaking clays or bringing down the game.

I don't think you got Craigs nose out of joint. Because of his use of the word " vile " to describe BP just goes to show he'll never understand the joy of shooting the way our forefathers use to shoot. Everyone one else just made comments to try and help Andrew. I also use it in my revolvers, trade gun, fowler, pistols, rifles, matchlock, and my cartridge shotguns. And yes, the clean up isn't all that much trouble.
As Eric said, DON'T use plastic wads. In your brass shells make sure the .125 nitro card is a 10ga. You want a tight fit for a good seal. Those brass shells [ magtechs ] have a 11ga ID and 11ga wads will just slide in with a loose fit. I've found too thick a OS card will give me a hole in the pattern. Just use the .028 card. Your square load will give you velocities just over 1000fps. It is a bit slower, but not enough to notice on a skeet field. I've shot a lot of 1oz/ 75grs of 3F and had in the mid to high 20/25. For SCs I use 1oz/75 or 80grs of 3F. In paper or plastic shells all 12ga fiber wads. I load em on a Mec single stage press. A 46 bushing is cut in half to throw 80grs. Then either finish them or pull em out and roll crimp with the .028 OS card. A couple of friends and I shoot BP in SxS events. I know what you're going through. You want to blame the misses on the BP. Check your pattern and once you're satisfied they're good you can start your shooting on a positive note. If you don't feel good about shooting BP loads, you won't shoot good scores. Once you see and know the patterns are good you can say to yourself " I'm ready to start breaking some clay birds". It sounds like part of your problem is the pattern if you can't hit low 7 on a skeet field. Good luck.

All of the suggestions so far, I think, are on-the-money. I shoot the black stuff in a number of calibers plus 12 ga. and I'm always curious about the velocity. I break clay like no tomorrow but the recipe books say that my velocity is only about 1000 fps. It may be that your eye-hand coordination to velocity may be "off" when shooting the BP. Missing at stations 1 and 7? Man, that is hard to take. Especially the low house at st. 7! I'm shooting 2F Elephant BP in brass hulls, lubed wads, without a shot cup. It works fine; don't see any reason to change.

I’m going to get out this weekend, between cutting the wads in half and adding a OTS card under the shot I think it’s going to make a big difference, I took advice from everyone here, loaded a couple different loads and going to test them.
I learned a lot here. I’ll post back how I make out

Well I did reduce the power charge and split the fiber wads in two plus adding a over the shot card to the top of the wad. I did not have a chance to put on a patterning board yet but did break a lot more targets with these loads.
Can you pack black powder too much?
Overall I think I’m on the right track, just need some time to put on a board and experiment. Thanks for all the help.