English Best compared to a Parker
 

I am curious how an English best gun compares to a Parker? I know people say they are like comparing apples and oranges as being two different guns, but I am not asking which is better.

I am more curious what is it about English Best guns that is so different? Partly I am trying to grasp what makes a Best gun a Best gun, but also just what is different about them compared to a Parker.

I have stumbled upon an English Best Boxlock gun that is intriguing to me. It has bushed firing pins and double safety sears and better internal fit and finish on a 28 inch barrel with a 15 inch LOP on some gorgeous wood topping the scales at a 6lbs 3 oz 12 gauge.

I have read enough to realize that most Best guns are considered sidelocks, but this one is a boxlock which is far more appealing to me.

So any assistance in understanding what a BEST gun is and how they differ/compare to Parkers would be quite appreciated!

Cheerio

There really is no comparison - almost without exception, American double guns started life as basic utility grade hardware store guns, and underwent successive elaborate embellishments (e.g., more select exotic wood for stocks, intricate checkering and carving, extensive engraving commensurate with the ascending grade(s), polishing and plating of internal parts, etc.) as the price went up. In essence, they were all assembled from pre-manufactured parts much like an assembly line automobile.

To really understand the difference between these guns and the British "bests", I highly recommend watching on YouTube the British Shooting Times production of "Purdey Guns and Rifles" (or any of the similar Purdey presentations), to really understand the almost primitive nature of the approach to building a "best" gun. The presentation is about an hour long and well worth the investment in time; I find the segments on stockmaking and sidelock construction and regulation absolutely mesmerizing. I have watched it at least a dozen times and often go back to selected segments to absorb the magical way they produce their fine guns. (Holland & Holland have equally good feature films on the construction and finishing of their guns.).

Kevin just about sums it up, plus the feel is different when it's in your hands, I can't explain it.

Is a Corvette a better car than a Jaguar, Porsche or Ferrari ? Each maker has strong following. All have won at LeMans. The Corvette will probably run more trouble free miles than the others. Parker’s are very reliable handle well and have a strong following . No doubt owners of English shotguns think they are better without being able to give a concrete reason.

William

Again I wasn't asking better or worse. I just was curious how they differed. I am interested in a best, but want to make sure it is different enough from a parker. Has nothing to do with better.

But to answer your question, the ford GT is unequivocally better than the vette :)

Kevin nailed it. A box lock can still be a best quality gun. IMHO it's the human factor that makes a "best" gun a "best" gun. These are completely hand built. I'm blessed with two Purdey's and a H&H compare them side by side with an identical configured Parker (or Fox) and the English gun is more lively in the hands. For instance my H&H is a straight grip 20ga with 26 inch barrels and tips the scale under six pounds my DHE 20 configured exactly the same way is almost 6 1/2 pounds.

Have to agree with Kevin, the American guns foundation is in the utility, a "Best gun" starts life as an idea and slowly takes shape into a lightweight balanced, handcrafted fine tuned machine. To be quite honest with opinions, even machined/handcrafted British guns have a quality to them American gun makers didn't achieve.

A true gun person will have a selection of both categories. I have had Parkers and English guns since I was in my teens but was seventy before I acquired my dream English best. It really does have something the others don't have.

To fully comprehend English Best guns, one must also consider clientele.

English Best guns were made up for RICH individuals. Many in pairs. And nothing but the finest in craftsmanship, precision and art were acceptable for this market. An English aristocrat simply did not show up on a shoot with a keepers gun in hand. He carried a gun that caught the eye and envy of others. A Best.

This is what made the reputations of Purdey, Holland & Holland, Boss and others.

American guns, including the Parker, were basically products. And when required, embellished and fitted to higher levels. But they were still basically products. In British terms, keepers guns.

Sorry to be blunt. But it's the truth.

Additionally, most hunting in GB was/is driven shoots not busting through brush in American grouse coverts.

An American professional's take on the issue: http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot....-american.html. I like my farm implements.

You gotta to love him, he tells it as it is.............

The only problem I have with that article, is I've honestly never heard anyone claim a Parker or any of the ones he lists to be the equal to a "Best" gun. Not once.

I mean, I love my PH, but I could buy 25 of them with what I'd pay for a H&H Royal.

Dewey conveniently omits the Lefever. The reason? There is nothing about the Lefever to ‘trash’.






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Parkers are a marvel of American industry. Although there's a heck-of-a-lot of hand work in a Parker, what sets it apart is the quality AND the fact that it's a factory gun...NOT a completely handmade "best" gun. To me, it's a comparison that shouldn't be made as if they were intended to be the same. The comparison must also take into consideration the cultures that produced them. Saying "apples v. oranges" is probably too simplistic, but might be a good start at differentiation.

Why not just appreciate each for what it is? -- Great guns by great makers.

Again, I didn't mean this as a comparison as to what is better. Mostly I am just curious if they are different enough to merit owning a nice London gun or if I should just put that money towards another Parker.

As an example, I do not feel a Fox or LC or Lefever or winchester, etc are different enough to merrit pursuing in my opinion. I would much rather just own another Parker.

English Best guns I have always read and heard were different enough from classic american doubles that it was almost a different shooting experience handling one.

The two are different. Feature for feature, an English best is lighter, (generally) made to minimal tolerances, has different handling characteristics, and made to order. Unless you order one, you are getting someone else's specifications -- but, still extraordinary guns. Actually, I see enough differences in the American maker's guns to want one (OK, more than one) of each. Are they the same as an English best? Very likely not in most "expert's" opinions (I am absolutely NOT an expert).

I have had wine that cost a great deal and had a great reputation, and have had wine that cost much less and tasted good enough that I could not tell the difference. I know it was my inability to discern the difference, but I am also sure that my biases probably came into play. Again, when you take bias out of the equation (not easy to do), you get two different kinds of guns.

Now, who the heck am I to say this?...just another guy with an opinion, and we all know what that means.:)

Go for the English "Best Gun" but if your heart is in Parkers, well you know what to do!

^^^ This pretty much sums it up nicely. I have an English gun many consider to be equal to any “best” and I have several nice Parker’s. You can’t really compare them and I don’t care to, I just appreciate them for what they are.

If you are comparing shootablity, English Guns are often much lighter, some appreciate light and prefer it. Personally I like heavier guns.

William

A London gun VS a Parker is much the same as Russel boots VS Danner or another manufacturer. The others are manufactured the Russels hand made as is the London gun.

Do you want a side lock or box lock a 12 or a small bore? I recently sold a very nice 20ga Charles Boswell best box lock for what a GHE 20 in excellent condition would sell for. A best side lock even in a 12 bore will set you back five figures and probably be between an AHE and AAHE depending on condition.

My English guns are in 12, 16 (a two bbl set) and a 20 in hammerless guns and I wouldn't trade any of them. If you have your heart set on a London gun then by all means add one to your collection.

Is their such a thing as a “value” best? I realize value here is subjective obviously, but are their deals to be had? Outside of the big names?

You can find a very nice best gun from lesser known makers than Purdey, Holland & Holland or Boss.

There are always deals, but it just like Parkers, if it fits and you love, it buy it !
I bought a Boss round action at a steal and I bought a DH Damascus way over market price!

The question is. Does the gun talk to you...................... I have a H&H gun (no a pair!) that just took my soul (and I gave my soul for:eek: them ) I love Parker Skeet guns and I have a few but I sold most of my collection to pay for the above mentioned.

They are difference is, I love both, but they are as separate as night and day.

Kevin is totally correct in saying that American guns were built for utility first.We always have to remember that European guns had the protection of a proof law.They could build a gun to a specific load without worrying about liability.American builders had to look at their gun and say "what is the worst thing some fool can do to this?"and build accordingly.That is why our guns tend to be heavier and more durable.Also,the term "Best" tends to apply to guns built for driven shooting.If you look at English waterfowl guns they are close to our "field" grade guns.

Sporting Classics magazine, May/June, 1984, Firearms Column by Herschel Chadick, page 15, Quote: "If I am reincarnated and couldn't be a Parker, I'd want to be a Purdey!"
😊

Kirk,

Don Amos worked for several years researching English gun values. The values were based on auction results. He built a spreadsheet based on his research. He developed three ways to determine the price for a British gun:

1) Brand Value: how does the market value the name on the gun. A top tier maker (Purdey, Wooward, H&H, and Boss) bring a higher price than a 2nd or 3rd tier maker base on the two other factors being equal.

2) Original Value: looks at how well the gun was originally made. This is usually determined by the action features, engraving, wood figure, fit/finish, and to some edgy the original cost.

3) Current Condition: there are 7 levels to judge a gun on its current state of original finish and repairs.

A second or third tier maker could make a comparable gun to a first tier maker with the same features. On the used market today (and back in the day) would be cheaper based on brand value.

Ken

If I were reincarnated as an English double, and couldn't be a Boss, I'd be a Purdey.

I'd come back as either a Purdey or a Boss but only as a small bore hammer gun. Why? Because they are just plain cool:whistle:

If I owned DuBray’s 3 barrel set, Parker Hammer Pigeon Gun that’s going up for Auction at Morphy’s , would NOT trade it for a matched pair of English “best” Bentley Coupe and a tall blonde English girl to drive me from Grouse shoot to Grouse shoot.

William

I’ve got to agree with you William. In my opinion that particular gun is the epitome, the Apex, of collectible Parker guns. Is there one Parker with a richer provenance? I don’t believe so.
I would rather have that gun than the 16 gauge Invincible.

And to keep on track with this thread, I would rather own the duBray AA Pigeon gun than ANY European Best in existence.





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And there was this gent I shot with on occasion years ago who was so proud of his London Best vintage hammer double. He struggled with the extra long LOP on quicker presentations but wouldn't think of cutting the butt to something more useful. Then one day while shooting he broke a hammer and it was a sight to see the squad on all fours searching for the piece in the fall leaves. His gun was out of commission for almost two years while sent for repairs, and he told me later the firm also charged him a ransom for something vague like "cleaning and adjustments". He shot the Best once in a while after that and last I knew it was mostly a white glove/safe queen and now I see him shooting with higher grade American doubles.

Yep, just one data point, and just sayin …...

This is where it gets challenging. There were dozens of manufacturers in GB at the turn of the last century and it wasn't just the big names that were producing fine shotguns and sorting through them is challenging. The class of sport who could afford to have a pair of guns build by Boss, Woodward, Holland, and Purdey might not want to spend that kind of money for a guest or family member so they often went to smaller houses for those guns which were nearly equal in quality but lacked the name. Trick is to find out who all of the manufacturers are and where they fit in the pecking order. There are several makes of guns that you could lay in a table next to a "Best" gun and not be able to tell the difference in fit or finish, the difference is in the details: chopper lump vs dovetail barrels, who made the locks, how is fine is woodwork between the locks. Most of those details don't really matter in terms of functionality.

The single most important determination of value is condition and that's where you are going to have to be able to call on an expert for assurances. Re-paring a buggered up or worn out English gun can easily cost more than the gun is worth. Proceed with caution.

JDG

On the other hand, a matched pair of Boss guns, a Bentley coupe, a tall British blonde, and a round of Highland shoots sound quite rewarding to me.

I'd make the sacrifice. :)

I had wondered why someone would pay $100,000 - $200,000 for a custom Purdey, particularly when some used ones are available at auction for much less. Then I saw a matched pair that a friend of mine bought for himself when he sold out his Wendy's franchises. Question was answered. Truly beautiful guns.

My three English hammer guns are a Stephan Grant 12, J Venebles & Son 16 and a Boss 20. The Boss is a thumb break which broke and my local smith was able to micro weld it back up. The Venebles had a trigger break while shooting sporting clays. Fortunately the piece was easily recovered and the trigger repaired. None of these repairs was time consuming or costly. I've lost a hammer screw on my grade 3 Parker so any gun can break or be put out of commission for a period of time.

It's all in the individual gun. There are great buys in both categories. Watch your step and keep your eyes on the ball. Really good buys are few and far apart.

There is no comparison between a London Best and any American gun. I have owned both and the feel of a London best was never achieved by a American gun. My only complaint is with a 28 bore H&H I own. The single trigger failed a couple of time and required fixing. I don't like single triggers and the person who originally ordered this gun was probably an American. It also had a beavertail forearm which, in my opinion, doesn't belong on any game gun, especially a 28 bore. I converted the beavertail to a splinter forend before I took the first shot with the gun.

Tom,

I’m a sucker for a side lever gun. I’ve seen a H&H royal with a side lever and was really interested until I saw the single trigger. English guns need 2 triggers. Heck, I think Parkers need 2 triggers.

Ken

I have two Purdey's and a H&H all with single trigger:eek::nono: I have a smith on the lookout for a set of double triggers:whistle: