Gun collecting and Estate planning
 

My wife and I are working on our Estate plan with the lawyer and I am curious how others treat their gun collections in their estate planning. We’ll be setting up a revocable trust but not sure whether or not to put the guns in the trust or keep them out. Would like to hear what others have done. Thanks.

My Plan:

1) Keep those guns I really like and use.
2) Sell the rest.
3) Buy more cheap wine to drink...

Trusts have different purposes but I will assume that you are putting assets in trust to provide an income stream for your beneficiaries. Since collectibles such as firearms only produce income by liquidation it will complicate things such as determining when and how they will be liquidated. Complications generally mean added costs as well. So I would liquidate the ones you would put into trust and invest the proceeds in income producing assets. Trusts can be simple or quite complex depending on your goals, your asset values etc.

Take them with you and hunt in heaven

From what I understand, our trust is being set up to keep the assets out of probate court and as a means to reduce estate taxes and not to produce income. Our home and other high dollar assets will be put into the trust too. Was just wanting to how others include their gun collections in their estate planning.

My will states who gets what guns.

That's my understanding of how it works. The older (than me) people I have observed in the past, generally liquidate the expensive stuff, and gift the special/sentimental stuff before they get too old.
Now the question becomes; what is too old?

A semi close family friend passed within the last two months and he had a gun collection of about 150-200 pieces . His oldest was one of my classmates not someone I would really trust . Anyway the oldest got into the gun accumulation and pretty much gave the majority away for quick money . He sold collectible 700’s that were like new for an average of $300 a piece . This guy was just plain money hungry .

I told my wife to set a match to me , then put my ashes in a box in the coffin then add two specific 22 revolvers , five specific rifles and three specific double barrels . All but two of those had been owned by my father and grandfather .

When someone says: "to avoid probate" then (in my experience) everything becomes very state specific.

For us in Texas, probate is not the burden I see in other states. Given that I feel "avoiding probate" makes the planning become specific for the planner's own state of domicile and/or residence(s)* - generalizations become less valuable.

I do respect the idea to "avoid probate" for certain states. If I had property in some states, I would hold it in a trust for just that reason.

Please OP, do share what you work out for yourself.

* Note: the words "domicile" and "residence" are for two (2) different things. Much like "liquid" does not equal "fluid" and "twisted" is not the same as "twist" when referring to steel. And don't even get me started about the "situs" of a trust (another whole topic unto itself that you can find a lot of seminar papers written about).

Possibly N.C. may be one of those states that would make probate less awful, but speaking from that point I would not want guns or personal property in a trust. Chances are good that you know which guns, etc. you want to go to whom and also what you may want to sell. I’m sure you will give direction as to how or whom you want to liquidate the ones you are not giving away. When you put them in the trust you give up some of your flexibility and possibly liquidity and possibly pay a trustee for handling the liquidation. This all might go out the window if you had\have really large and valuable holdings. Just my thought.

If you die and have a loving wife, you don't have any guns, she does. If a n'er do well son is your only survivor and sells your guns for $300 each, shame on you for dying with guns. If he is not your only survivor or heir, he shouldn't have control of the guns by himself. To prevent your heirs from selling your guns for $300 each, provide that they be sold at auction, then they will bring $350 each with about $55 paid in commission on each one and another $50 in expenses to carry them around. I like the "she owns them, I don't" option. Hopefully, she will live a few more years and figure out how to liquidate them and keep the money. In my opinion, guns are a bit like garden tools. There are few pieces of paper identifying them or valuing them, and hardly anyone knows what they are worth, if anything. I just don't see a problem with a few hundred dollars worth of hunting equipment being passed down or given to a wife. My waders are not going to be caught up in court, nor will my Carhardt bird pants, least of all not my 20 year old Filson bird boots.

Sika, no offense, but I do have to ask. Why on Earth would you choose to take quality firearms and consign them to a coffin for arguable the rest of existence? I have many guns that mean a great deal to me. But would never be buried with them.

Just curious.

My only recommendation is that when I die you should all get to Georgia as fast as you can for the yard sale my wife will have.

John, all I can find on you is a P.O. Box address.......:(






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You should look long and hard at a "revocable" trust. My folks did the same here in NH and in the end it did nothing to protect there assets. Look into an irrevocable trust. Just do your homework.

If you are talking about protection of assets so as to make a person eligible for Medicaid be sure to talk to a good lawyer. Many people are under the impression an irrevocable trust offers this protection, it does not always do that. If you maintain the discretion to use the assets as you see fit they are counted as being available to pay for care. Since 2005 assets that one does not have any discretion over are still subject to a five year look back and that look back starts when you apply for Medicaid not when the transfer is made. The law is constantly changing in this area and changes to the benefit of the government not the individual. More and more one must be prepared to spend their assets or have insurance to pay for nursing home care.

Dean, just come to Vienna and hang a left. You can't miss it.

Having spent 15 years in the life insurance business prior to going in to the gun business, this is a topic that is very near and dear to me. First of all, it is impossible to give advice on whether or not you should use a revocable or an irrevocable trust for your guns without knowing more about your specific state law, your overall plans, and your circumstances with your guns (I.E. how large a percentage of your estate are they?, do you have family members/friends who you wish to leave them to? Etc. Etc. Etc.).

I work with clients every single day on planning for their collections. It is both a difficult and necessary conversation to have, because sadly, Not one single one of us will get out of here alive. I see lots of folks start selling off their collectibles after a health scare - usually they start selling the guns that are easiest to sell in the current market and are left with the most difficult ones to move when they pass which sets up the family for disappointment and problems.

I tell all of my friends and clients to "sell from the bottom up" when thinking about disposing of a collection while they are alive. By that, I mean, sell the lesser guns and keep the better ones- almost regardless of price realized. The money is always made in the best guns in any collection.

Another thing to consider is simply "have a plan." Leaving your wife with a gun collection she doesn't care about, or kids a gun collection they don't care about, is a problem in the making. My advice is to review your options (consign to auction, consign to a dealer, leave to heirs who want to have them) and leave your wishes clearly stated in an ethical will (not a legal document, but a family love/instructional letter). If you plan to leave your things to family without any specific instructions, again, you are asking for problems and pain for your family. Something none of us wants to create.

I could go on and on about this topic - and would be happy to do so.

Kudos to Mr. Jay for bringing up this extremely important topic.

Hearing the death knell of lead here in California , the
aging collector market coupled with a foreseeable glut of vintage guns,
disappearing demand for these beautiful doubles and my own anal retentivity,
I've spent the last few years divesting myself of dozens of fine doubles from my modest cabinet.
My remaining guns can be counted on both hands.

For me, less has become more.

I don’t want my wife to sell for what I told her they cost. Past 70 best sell off anything you don’t use or have any emotional attachment to.

William

Damnedest thing though,
The cumulative value of my guns hasn’t diminished even though the sum total has.

I just attended a seminar on Gun Trusts and general gun law put on by David Goldman, a lawyer in Jacksonville and he was great. www.JacksonvilleLawyer.pro Small PSA.

A trust set up properly will avoid probate and insure your wishes are carried out. My investments and life insurance have named beneficiaries so no issue there, the real estate and vehicles are jointly owned so once again no issue. I have been selling off a few guns mostly the M70 collection but have reinvested that into other high quality guns. I'm in the process of doing a trust just for the guns. It includes a rough estimate of value in today's market who to contact for disposal and who NOT to contact. I have included language for the passing of Gunner's gun to a friend who has a young son coming up in the ranks and maybe someday he will be sitting in a grouse camp telling his friends about Gunner's gun and an old guy called C.O.B. :)

I fail to see the difference between a gun collection and garden tools. There is no paper on either and either can be sold at a yard sale. Refer to John Davis' post.

I completed my Living Trust last May, and the purpose is mainly to keep squabbling down on who gets what. But I was told that probate is a non-issue; one of the benefits of a trust. I left my guns out because I'm probably going to sell many over the next few years. One person gets all my personal property, and there is no list to amend all the time.

I've seen the mess personally. When my dad passed away, his (second) wife parted everything out in a big yard sale. I had things stored in the garage at the time (I was in the military living out of state) and I actually had to buy a few of my own things back that were given to me by my grandfather. I'm not kidding. They were just some antiques that had no real value, but it really lit me on fire to pay 50 bucks for my own stuff. Thank God dad had the sense to put the guns in the will, or I wouldn't have any of them.

After seeing that mess, a family friend called his kids together, they discussed the situation and decided who wanted what guns...and they got them right then and there. Then he went out and bought a new 30-06 to hunt with and had piece of mind that everyone was happy.

Food for thought...