Western 12 gauge 3" "Record"
 

A customer brought me a box of Western 12 gauge 3" "Record" shells . Lubaloy Super X #4's in paper hulls .

I'm curiouse as to what time period they may have been made .

Am I correct in assuming 40's ?

The box is stamped 1 3/8 ounce of #4's .

That’s certainly a “collectors item.”






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If I can get a decent Belgium A-5 12 MAG full choke barrel I just may try to use one or two of them to pot a gobbler !

those shells are probably from the 30 s.....and worth probably a hundred dollar bill if the box and shells are in good shape..... charlie

The first appearance of the Lubaloy Super-X loads that I have from Western is in the February 1, 1929, Western Ammunition for Rifle, Revolver and Shotgun. They are not in the March 1, 1928, edition. The 1 3/8 ounce
Lubaloy load was offered from then into the 1960s. The extreme high brass RECORD case was replaced by the Super-X case shortly after WW-II.

As you can imagine over this time period there were several styles of boxes. So far, I haven't been able to snag a picture of a 12-gauge 3-inch Lubaloy two-piece box from the 1929-1932 period. There are probably versions from 1929 and 1930 with the old corrosive primers and ones from 1931 and 1932 with the new Non-Corrosive Primer.

By 1933, Western had gone to the one-piece shotshell boxes and this style was in use --

Attachment 65206

into 1939, when the blue and yellow boxes came into use. By 1948, the RECORD case had been replaced by the regular Super-X case and the Super-Seal Crimp and the Super Seal Cup Wads replaced the roll-crimp and the Seal-Tite wads --

Attachment 65207

With all due respect to the A5 Craig those shells were made for the M12HD. Send some to me, my HD will eat them like M&M's.:):)

The label on the box is the first one you pictured . Sadly the box is missing the bottom and about seven shells .

I'm not much of a pump person although I've owned a couple Model 12's . I suppose instead of the A-5 I could use my 12 Mag Superposed . But I think I'd prefer a Bert Becker massaged HE Fox or a Model 21 3" !

No! No! Daryl, Along with the introduction of the Model 12 Heavy Duck, Winchester and Western introduced their 12-gauge 3-inch Super Speed and Super-X MAGNUM loads with 1 5/8 ounce of shot.

dont forget the lc smith long range 3 inch gun and the super fox 3 inch gun...the 1 3/8 ounce magnum loads were made for this loading before the model 12 was made by ten years....probly a few parker 3 inch guns were made for this load... charlie

The 1 3/8 ounce progressive burning powder, high velocity load in the 12-gauge 3-inch case was not called MAGNUM. Note the word MAGNUM is not on the boxes I've shown.

Thanks for reminding me about those 1 5/8oz. loads Dave. I can't believe that I used to shoot those through a Mossberg 500 pump. OUCH! I ended up handloading an 1 3/8oz. of 4's which was more effective and more pleasant to shoot.

The same customer came in today and presented me with a second box of Winchester Leader 12 gauge 3" again with paper hulls and again missing the bottom of the box . These however have 24 in the box and are the 1 5/8 ounce again #4's . These have on the box Winchester Leader SuperWSpeed Staynless .

We need to link these threads --

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25034

The box holding the 1 5/8 ounce loads looks very similar to the box you posted in that thread except mine doesn't say lacquered .

Incidently what was lacquered ? The shot or the hulls ?

The shell hulls were lacquered to make them “waterproof”.





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The hulls. A bit more waterproofing. I don't have any Winchester Lacquered shells. Here is a comparison of a Lacquered Remington ARROW Express 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum and a regular Remington Nitro Express 10-gauge 2 7/8 inch shell, both from the late 1930s --

Attachment 65289

and here is the box for the 12-gauge 3-inch shell --

Attachment 65288

i really like the looks of that lacquered shell...i do not have a laqured shell in my collection yet..i have some of the 10 ga shown when i was a boy my father let me shoot up a bunch of these old 10 ga shells i still have some and occasioally take a turkey with these loads...i have yet to have one of these green remingtons fail me...the 3 inch 12 ga is really a good load got to get me one of these lacqured boxes of shells...the 1 5/8 ounce load was a good load....charlie

The Winchester 3" 1 5/8 ounce !

The Western 1 3/8 ounce .

More of the 1 3/8 ounce .

Please, don't shoot collectible ammunition. Quite often, the primers fail anyway.

:duck:

Only one way to find out :whistle::rotf:

Wow. Nash Buckingham's favorite load. I haven't seen a box of those on Ward's auction for years. I wonder how much they would bring there.

What is 4K?

Do you mean '4L'? The 'L' indicates Lubaloy, which was Western's tradename for copper plated shot and bullets..

The box of 1 5/8 ounce loads are stamped "4K" on top while the 1 3/8 ounce are stamped "4L" on top .

Ooops!

:whistle:

Those Winchester LEADER Super-Speed shells with the 4K (KopperKlad) shot are extremely rare and must have only been offered very briefly. None of the Winchester shotshell paper I have from 1931 to 41 shows that load. The only offering of KopperKlad shot in the Winchester paper that I have is in REPEATER Handicap Trap Loads in the early 1930s and the RANGER Handicap Trap Loads in the later 1930s.

By the way, I can recall that somewhere in a previous post I said there was no such thing as a Winchester 12-gauge 3-inch Super-Speed with coppered shot. Never say never! Me eating crow!

These are the LEADER Super-Speed offerings from a 1937-8 Winchester folder --

Attachment 65333

and here are the regular Super-Speed listings from the same folder --

Attachment 65334

and finally the RANGER listings showing the Handicap Trap Loads with the Kopperklad shot near the bottom.

Attachment 65335

Another thing to note is that Winchester put up the 1 ounce 20-gauge, progressive burning powder, high velocity, load in both a 2 1/2 and a 2 3/4 inch shell, while everyone else only cataloged that load in a 2 3/4 inch or longer shell.

Attachment 65336 Attachment 65337

Bill, didn’t you buy an unopened case of Nash’s ammo a few years ago?






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I did.

Winchester Leader KopperKlad
 

Sorry I'm running a little behind the ball lately.

Here is a 3" KopperKlad box I picked up a couple of years ago.

Will

2 and 7/8ths Record Lubaloy
 

And here is one I got in the mail yesterday.

Will, are these 3"?

The box is stamped 2 7/8 in. right above WESTERN

Wouldn't those have been made 1/8" longer than a 2 3/4" chamber, adhering to the old practice of making the chambers 1/8" short for a better gas seal?




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Record Lubaloy
 

No Bill they are an eighth of an inch short.

Will

Oddball Length
 

Dean,

My understanding is that special wadding was used to relieve shot deformation in high end target loads and is what predicated the additional length in order to ensure proper crimp.

But I am by no means an authority.

Will

Nor am I Will.




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