Low attendance expected at Vintage Cup?
 

"Dr. Bob" sent this note along to members of the Lefever forum regarding the upcoming Vintage Cup shoot in Kennedyville MD next month. Perhaps this pertains only to attendance by LACA members but it reads as though he is talking about the entire shoot when he mentioned the vendors:

Bob Decker wrote:

"In the last newsletter I wrote that the LACA would attend the 2018 Vintager's Cup in Maryland September 21-23. We have had to rethink. Rumors are flying that attendance will be scant and few vendors have signed on. It is quite an effort for us to put on a show and at this point it is me only. Unless something changes it is not likely the LACA will have a presence at the Vintager's Cup this year".

Dr. Bob and I had several discussions regarding this "phenomenon" (e.g. rumors of no-shows) at the recent Rock Mountain SC shoot. It is imperative that the Vintagers and Hopkins Game Farm release some type of confirmation regarding the number and type of vendors along with enhanced publicity NOW to avoid having this event become a self-fulfilling prophecy of rumor and innuendo. The clock is ticking....

I looked for a list of vendors and could not find one. I agree with Kevin.

I was looking at the Vintagers & Hopkins websites a week or so ago in search of a vendor list. My intent was to look it over and possibly convince myself to go if the vendor list appealed to me. As I found no such list I just wrote the event off.That would support your theory Kevin, they need to post said list.

I just shot an email to Gary Lacey of the Vintage Gunners.

I suggested he get a Vendor list on the Hopkins Game Farm website ASAP.

I will post here what I learn from him.

Dean

Thanks Dean!

I think it's too late.........This event vendors complained last year about this event so I think you will see less this year, I think some of major players may not show up. It's too bad

What were they complaining about?? I mean specifically; bad location(s) in the tent, bad food, lousy weather, heat & humidity, no good guns for sale, what? Some of these things we can control; others not so much. The little stuff can kill a good shoot (Remember when the local BBQ service ran out of food & most drinks at Pintail Point 2 days in a row??

Kevin, I'm not sure but I think it was the turn out of people and shooters. I don't know just what I heard from some of the vendors. Like I said I would love to see this event grow and come back to what it was.

Could the timing of the shoot have something to do with a low turnout? Dove, early goose and squirrel season are open in many states in September. The shoot is a week away from the start of Small Game seasons across the country. Many people save their time off and their money to go hunting then.

I don't know Pete, the Vintagers of previous years was always held in late Sept. and had good attendance. My opinion is that after it folded for a few years the bloom is off the rose so to speak. Ray P. and his loyal Edwardian gents and ladies were not in the attendance numbers last year like they were before.

My opinion is that there are 3 really well attended and fun shoots before this one. (Deep river, Ernie's and Mike's in August.) Maybe this is just one too many too late. Hunting seasons are pretty much underway and if this one was'nt in my backyard so to speak, I would'nt be attending.

When it was held at Pintail there was never a shortage of vendors or attendees.

But one person’s MO was probably more responsible for the current situation than anything else... But he’s gone and those in charge today are running it right.

It should be considered a new and fresh beginning. And it will be if folks would give it a chance.





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I was planning to spin off/trade some guns to larger dealers at the VGC, and read on another site that Steve Barnett will not be there. I DO NOT personally know if that’s accurate. However I did talk today with Jay Schacter of Vintage Firearms who told me he will not be at the Orvis Game Fair nor at the VGC this year due to getting his new store up and running. As others have written it would be good to see a firm list of vendors and fairly quickly at that.

I am not in the business of selling guns but the economics of attending these events makes little sense to me if I were a gun dealer. Table rental, travel costs and accommodations can easily exceed 2K-3K. You would need to sell 10K+ worth of guns just to break even and nobody in America is in business to break even. Shopping has become more internet based and shipping guns for inspection, it is more efficient for buyer and seller.
SxS shooting events have become too numerous in my opinion but the market will eventually correct the situation and eliminate the weaker ones.

Craig is exactly right. Actually, most of my purchases at gun shows were from other members and not dealers. The camaraderie is the main reason to go to shows

The only businesses that may ultimately be able to justify attending these events are the major auction houses. They are the market makers today for high end stuff and their margins can justify the expense. The vintage shoots are a great venue to market both upcoming sales and obtain consignments. Free market capitalism is brutal but efficient. The small and weak will ultimately fail. Most dealer will rely almost fully on the internet and fed-ex in the future.

The cost for exhibition space at bigger events like the Southern and the Vintage Cup is completely ridiculous. $600-800 for a basic space with 2 tables! Imagine what the bigger vendors are spending!
At a lot of these events these days a smaller vendor is lucky to sell a gun or two or even just trade something. And most do not have margins to make up a $1,000 or more expense after tables, hotel and travel.

It getting to just not make financial sense.

At least at events like Ernie’s and Mike’s the vendor exhibition space is reasonably priced.

FWIW - I have been approached several times over the last 2 years by the 'prime movers' of a number of these events, I suppose because I'm old now and have a good looking grandfather beard, but mostly because I've been to most of these things since the original VC at Addieville RI back in God knows what year. The primal question was always; "Where do you see this (these things) going?" Meaning of course the SxS's attraction of showing, selling, competition, and all things connected with it.

My answer is always the same: IMHO these type events enjoy a very predictable and finite life expectancy, mostly subject to the vagaries of event location, changing management, degree of difficulty and layout of the target courses and regimen, quality of ancillary services (quality of food service, number and placement of Port-A-Johns, availability of golf carts), costs for booth or tables, proximity to decent and affordable lodging, and is there anything for the wife or girlfriend to do while the beaux are oogling guns or actually shooting events?

Most of the commenters to this thread so far have touched on many of these factors. I think one of the major elements of declining attendance by both dealers and the public is that the event has been "interrupted" too many times since its departure from Sandanona; essentially never having been held in the same place more than 3 years in a row since then. It needs a real "home", in other words. I think may dealers interpret this as an event with a "rootless" existence, and shy away from participating due to the unpredictability of any kind of continuum over the near-term. Our collector organizations need to help keep it and similar events alive through displays, education, participation in competitions like the FPC, LCSPC and others. Being there is now much more than half the fun!

Kevin, I think your comments concerning how it may have attained a level of “rootless existence” are quite valid.

Unfortunately it may have reached that “point of no return” but I sure hope it can be salvaged.
If memory serves me, it was held at Pintail Point it was for longer than three years. If I recall correctly, Didn’t we set up there for five years?





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Dean, my understanding was that they (the VC) had signed a 3-year commitment contract with Pintail Point for holding the event there for that duration at a minimum. It has been just long enough and enough mental miles that I cannot confirm that for sure. It could have been longer.

Dean is correct; the Vintage Cup was held at Pintail Point from 2007 to 2011 (5 years). It moved to Addieville in RI in 2012.

Pintail Point was for 4 years ..... 2007-2010. Great shooting, collector, and exhibitor participation. Some of the best years for our annual meetings and banquet attendance. All just seemed to come together during that time period. :)

The Annual Meeting was in Louisville, KY in 2011 and Georgetown, SC
in 2012. That meeting was cut short due to Tropical Storm Sandy.

As I'd posted earlier, the Vintage Cup was at Pintail Point for 5 years to include 2011. Here's a link to a thread on the Fox site that references the 2011 VC at Pintail.

http://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3494

I met with Steve last night and no he will not be at the Vinagers but I think he said he would be at Orvis Game Fair.

I was told, by one of the major vendors, that the dust was so bad last year he had to buy an air compressor to blow off his guns. This was a primary complaint.

Come what may - We will still hold the PGCA Annual Meeting and Banquet at Hopkins Game Farm and the Fox/Parker Challenge will still be held on their shooting grounds as will all other scheduled shooting events.

Kathy and I will certainly be there.





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I will be there too with my son Mills and we are looking forward to it.

I was told on 8/20 that a vendor list was being put on the Vintagers website. I just looked and no list to be found.

As for dust in the tents and on the guns, I recommended after the first time at Hopkins, and again last summer, that they move the exhibitors tents onto the grass. There's nothing like seeing a table of 50,000 dollar guns with dust so thick you could write your name on them. Plus the tents would be cooler. I wasted my time.

I checked and don't see any list of vendors.

Vendors are a great addition to a shoot and the main reason I go to the Southern cause it sure isn't the shooting there. Ernie has a good vendor turnout as well and good shooting. These shoots are held the same weekends every year and both shooters and vendors can make their plans.

Michigan has a fledgling shoot in early September called The Tunnel of Trees. This is the third year and while they had vendors last year there will be none this year. I asked the reason why and was told "they didn't sell anything". I bought a nice Fox AE 20 from one of them.

The Great Northern is an excellent shoot but vendor participation is sparse there also.

At the end of the day the events need shooters first and foremost to survive. The southern and Ernie's make good on both sides of the event but out of the half dozen or shoots I go to they are the only two that do so.

Previous Vintagers management did a far better job of marketing the event when it was at Pintail Point. Those were great events and it didn’t hurt that it was a bull market for SxSs.

Most vendors, especially the gun vendors, want to know what non-shooting foot traffic they will be expecting. For the most part, we can't predict that. No matter what advertising is done, we can't say there will be X number of shoppers. We can fairly accurately predict how many shooters will attend and some of them are definitely shoppers too. Our event has grown (numbers of shooters and total events shot) over the 4 years. We plan on growing even more. Every shoot seems to have vendors that can't come after they have said they would. Various reasons, but it happens. The collector associations are always a plus when their presence is enjoyed in the vendor area. In the end, throw good targets and have good food and shooters will be happy. If the weather cooperates then the results are even better. Onward and upward lads!!

I was just speaking with Morris and he told me that Gary Lacey hasn't been involved in the operation of the Vintage Gunners since around the first of the year... who knew??

Morris is expecting a good turnout.

Incidentally, he said that they (RST) have updated their website and most items that said they were out of stock... now have plenty of stock.

He will be at Hopkins Game Farm.





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Good to hear Morris will be there. He'll get some business from me

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;251404]I was just speaking with Morris and he told me that Gary Lacey hasn't been involved in the operation of the Vintage Gunners since around the first of the year... who knew??

If he is'nt then who is?

He told me but the name slipped my mind but as I recall he may be a board member of the LCSCA.

Sorry...





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No apologies needed Deano, we're all getting old and forgetful.:)

I just shot a message to Morris asking him to tell me again... and I promised not to forget this time. :banghead:






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Note pads are your friend:)