Parker small bore classification
 

I know simple question, but its a curio of mine. What gauges fall under this classification? Is it 16, 20 and .410, leaving 10 and 12 as big bore?
Thanks guys!

what do you have against the 28????

the 16 was a small bore when it came out

i guess it depends on the reason for the question

i think in skeet rules a 16 has to play with the 12s, but some of the clays events i have been to include 16 in small bores


since i mostly have 10's and 12's - so 16 is small to me

I can't believe I spaced on the 28!! That's my go to gauge!

In all the shoots I go to the 16 is grouped with the 12's but it is considered by many as a small bore. To me a small bore is from the 20 to the 410. I shoot a lot of 16's and always compete with the 12's which is fine by me. 7/8's is plenty of shot for a clay target or kill a bird.

I believe historically 12 and larger to be big bore and 16 and smaller to be small bore. Where the 14 falls in is an unanswered question not to worry about.

What is the old saying... 16 gauge.... Hits like a 12 shoots like a 20. I think 16 is gray tipping point between big bore and small bore ideaology.

Recall reading some sxs expert that would put his customization to some newer guns coming out. He defined that 16 gauge and smaller were considered small bore guns and most adequate for upland hunting. Not trying to start a debate or argument but that was his position. BTW there have been plenty of times when grouse hunting I would not have minded carrying a light 12 with open chokes to sling more lead at grouse in thick cover.

I've always and still consider small bores to be any gauge smaller than 12ga. Especially when you are talking about 16's on gauge appropriate frames like Parker 0-frames or A.H. Fox 16's sharing the same action with the 20ga.

Depends on whether I am buying or selling :)

And when I was a kid cutting my 'hunting teeth' on pheasants I shot a 20 and did very well with it. Even after my friend took his Trojan 12 (that I had been using for three solid years) with him when he moved to Idaho I gladly went back to my twenties for pheasants, puddle ducks, and grouse. Never seemed to make much difference what gauge I shot but the twenties were always lighter to carry. My first 16 was a Parker in about 2005.





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Agree with you Dean.

I really enjoy carrying and shooting a nice lively small bore when hunting and 99% of the time that is what I am grabbing when shooting upland style hunting. Can only really remember one time that I felt really under gunned and that was grouse hunting in MN carrying a 20 ga. Got into an area that was maybe timbered 5 to 7 years before and new growth was thick with 12 to 15 foot tall tree saplings about wrist thick and in some places spaced about the same distance as jail cell bars. It was so tight in there and most still had leaves on em and every 75 yards we beat thru that grouse maze we would hear or see a flush. Most of the time never saw dog but if did not hear his bell would move to last position we heard him and sure enough he would be on a bird. They would flush about 25 yards from us or further. Lost count of flushes but it must have been 30 to 40.

I don't know how many actual birds or reflushes we got but I only saw 15 of them. Had quick fleeting shots on 10 of them and scratched down 3 and felt damn good about it due to some incredible dog work. Only got those because they flew like pheasant or woodcock flying straight up to break cover then flattening out. I thinned the tops of a lot trees. We zigg zagged all through that just trying to follow dog. That was first time in my life I actually felt I had a legitimate chance to daily limit out on grouse and thought some extra shot would have been helpful. That is also first time in my life where I got so turned around somewhere with no landmarks that I needed my compass to orient out of some place.

Having a 12 gauge with open chokes and more shot in the pattern might of helped. In the immortal words of Jack Elam after John Wayne tells him his splatter gun is useless. "Don't mind if I shoot do ya? It makes me feel better."

I like to think of small bore Parker’s being anything below a 12 gauge, especially since I would only have 1 small bore Parker if you didn’t.....:eek:

Can’t say much about the spacing of jail cell bars never having been close to them. But I imagine they look pretty close together from the inside... much like the spacing of sapling stems in a fine woodcock covert.






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I've used 20 bores extensively and believe that the best all around upland gun is a 16 bore shooting an ounce of shot. My grouse guns are 20 bores and a 28 bore, but I shot a 16 for years on grouse and it was damn near perfect. The only disadvantage that I see to the smaller bores, 16 included, is that, from a practical perspective, they are limited to size #6 or smaller, in my opinion, after patterning many small bores. You can get away with 5's in the 16 bore if you feel you need them, but my guns threw much more effective patterns with smaller shot.

I have taken many close range ducks in Saskatechewan playing with a 28 bore taking only ducks at 25 yards or under. Size 6 shot is a bit large for a 28 bore but the gun patterned them reasonably well at 25 yards. It was a real kick taking ducks with the little gun.

I shoot 7/8 oz. hand loads in my 16’s with either 7.5 or 8 shot. I shoot #6 shot at puddle ducks �� under 30 yards or so. Never have used #5 for anything, ever.





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Never been behind bars myself. But toured an ICE facility that had temporary holding cells.

Actually I thought we were going into a woodcock den because that is what it felt and looked like but for some reason no woodcock were holding there. Did find some in another area that looked same as other cover thinking that was where grouse were holding, but it only had a few woodcock. Go figure.

I use 5's out of a 12 bore for early season and late season pheasants. I use only a 12 bore late in the season but early on I might use anything. I like to rotate my guns. The reason I use 5's on early season pheasants is because this is typically close range shooting and I have less pellets in the bird than with 6's. I don't shoot pen birds but I would imagine that 5's would be perfect for them also for the same reason. Shooting pen birds is a lot like early season wild bird hunting.


My perspective on shot loads for hunting is a bit different than others. If I am going to use 1 oz., I use a 16, 7/8 oz. I use a 20 and 3/4 for the 28 bore. For hunting I use the standard load for the gauge. If you're going to carry around a heavier 16 bore, you might as well use standard loads for it. I consider 1 oz. the standard load for a 16.


By the way, not to start a debate, but I would not take a 410 hunting. It has no use in the field in my perspective. The 28 bore, however, is a good hunting gun used within its limitations. It's not a serious game gun, but a seasoned and careful hunter can have a lot fun with it. The 410 shoots 3/4 oz. like crap. Put that 3/4 oz. in a 28 bore and you have a real gun.

IF your going to use 1oz of shot in a 16 then you might as well carry a light 12. The only 12 I have hunted with in decades is a British light game gun and as it comes in under 6lbs I have only used RST 2 inch shells and 3/4 0Z of 7's.

I used to use #5 for pheasant way back in the day when we actually had pheasants but haven't used anything larger than 7's in a very long time.

Maybe we should think of the 16 as an in between bore, not a large bore but not really a small one either. It is however just about perfect.

16 Gauge- Hits like a 12 and shoots like a 20. It's an old slogan or cliche` but it still means something and rings as true today as it has for years.

It was such a popular gauge as a do all gun but fell out of favor. Myriad of reasons and most of them have nothing to do with performance. I like shooting mine and its on a 1 frame and I don't really notice it being any heavier than any 20 gauge.

I like shooting a 28 gauge on plantation quail and even some put out pheasants and chuckers using 7.5 shot. It is not a Parker but its great little shooter to play with. Bruce Day enlightened me with some pages from his Parker Story about patterns, shot count and velocities of gauges on a table or chart. The 28 gauge patterned well and the shot velocity was outstanding. It delivered a great pellet count with a lot of energy. After reading that could really see the keen interest and attraction of using a 28 gauge. Gun is so light and lively it feels like a sissy gun but its fun to shoot.

I tend to agree with Tom on .410 which is calibre not a gauge. I don;t know why they don't call it what it is, a 67 gauge. I know some guys that if talk about their 410's, the next answer your giving is "Honest officer that is all I said before the fight broke out".

i thought it was hits like a 12, carries like a 20

British light 12 bores are a whole different category. I consider the best London game guns to be unsurpassed in every way. The light 12's built by the best British makers and proofed for light loads are wonderful. I have a case of 12 bore Eley 2" shells (full 20 two piece boxes roll crimped) given to me by my grandfathers close friend. His name was Elliot Bell and he ordered a Purdey 2" game gun back in the twenties and killed a lot of game with it including pheasants. When he had the early stages of Alzheimer's, he gave me a case of 2" shells for the Purdey and a light Belgian guild gun that was his knockabout and rainy day gun. I never got the Purdey. His wife sold that even though they didn't need the money. He was the founder and owner of Business Week magazine and was the banking commissioner of New York state in the 30's. I had always hoped to get the Purdey since his only child was a girl not interested in guns, but it didn't happen.

Rich might have his gun..........

You are probably right. I have heard it different ways, but the hits like a 12 has been along that same line from what I have heard over the years.

That would be wonderful. I'd like to know where that Purdey is and how Rich got it. If the gun is Elliot Bell's gun, I can share my reminisces of the man and his hunting with the Purdey. He lived on Quaker Hill in Pawling, NY and was the consummate sportsman. He also gave me his salmon flies. He was a close friend of Governor Thomas E. Dewey who was the Republican candidate for president in 1944 and 1948. Dewey also lived on Quaker Hill and was a friend of my grandfathers. I have hunted both their estates since I was a boy and have fond remanences of both men. Which Rich are you referring to?

Eric, refresh my memory. Are you the gentleman who owned the VHE in the box skeet gun?

If the Purdey has EVB engraved on the stock shield then it is in all likelihood Elliot Bell's gun. Those and not common initials.

Tom yes Eric did have the NIB skeet gun. He is referring to me in regards to the Purdey. I don't know about it being your friends gun but I would love to have those shells:). I assume they are paper. I bought a case of RST 2 inch paper and they are wonderfull with 3/4oz of 7's I've had no complaints in the grouse coverts.

If the Purdey does not have EVB engraved on the stock shield, it is not Elliot Vance Bell's gun. I am disappointed. I thought that you might have his gun and was excited about knowing where that Purdey was. Elliot Bell was always very good to me and I used to drool over the Purdey. I have shot it many times but never took it hunting. I was too afraid to. He was truly a great man. He was, in a way, partially responsible for Dewey losing the 1948 election to Truman. Everyone thought he would win easily including Dewey. Elliot told him to keep a relatively low profile and not touch on any controversial topics. It was his to lose and a slip of the tongue could spell trouble. Candidates can't do that today. In the meantime, Truman was everywhere doing his whistle stop tours while Dewey was kissing babies. Elliot was Dewey's campaign manager for his two successful runs for governor of New York. But he sure was wrong on the presidential election. Elliot never quite over Dewey not getting elected. Neither did my grandfather. They lamented it often even in their later years.

Dewey was so sure of election, that he put in a private air strip on the estate. Pawling was going to be his summer White House. It had two hangers and he built a log cabin with a dance floor behind the hangers. The airstrip is still maintained and is where I learned to fly when I was fourteen years old. The cabin burned down so we put a double wide trailer in complete with bar and bunk beds to sleep it off if someone got too lit to drive. I still use the property as if I owned it, hunting and flying from that airstrip.


I don't use the shells. I am saving them to pass down. They are great looking paper shells with roll crimp. I broke open one box to see what they look like. Very cool looking shells.

Back to the original topic. I consider small bores to be 28, 20 and .410. The 16 belongs with the large bore 12 and 10 as the 16 standard industry factory offerings are in 1oz. and it handles it very well although the recoil is punishing. When I want to shoot a "heavy" to me load I'll shoot a 1oz. load in a 12. It's much more efficient in the 12 than the 16.

Don't know I'm qualified to weigh in but fwiw I've always been under the impression anything smaller than a 12 was considered small bore. Sorry for the poor timing : ) but what really grabbed my attention in this thread was mention of a nib Skeet Gun..are there pictures of that gun anywhere? Would love to see them if there are & couldn't find anything through the search function..

Scott that NIB skeet gun went to a collector in North Carolina, I don't know if there are any pictures of it available now or not.

Tom the Purdey is way, way back in the safe. I'll be getting the grouse guns together pretty soon and I'll check it out. It's a long shot (esp from a medium bore:rotf:) but I'll chect it out. The short RST's are pretty cool but I would imagine nothing compared to those vintage shells.

I grew up shooting a 16 vh that was my grandfathers. Never considered any other gague until later in life. As Dean said, the 16 was fine on all manner of birds and waterfowl.

As in most matters under discussion here, Parker provided an answer.

From the 1910 Parker Small Bore Shot Gun pamphlet, here are data comparing the sub gauges 16, 20, and 28 to the standard 12.