Identification and Value Family Heirloom
 

My Parker Hammer gun was purchased new and has been passed down through the generations.My Texas family was mostly ranchers and farmers. This gun shows that it was used extensively to bring home dinner. The checkering is almost worn away. Mechanically it was kept in good shape. When it was bequeathed to me I sent it to Griffin & Howe for inspection and service. It was returned as safe to shoot. The bore is shin without pits. The barrel has no bulges, dents or pits. The dings on the stock are badges of hunts. Steel butt plate is intact.
Thanks for helping a newbie.
Oliver
The pictures show the key marks. Here are the specifics
Serial number: 37038/Pat Mar 16, 1875 (Before date are a symbol and LT & symbol. "O"?
Barrel length: 32 inches.
Barrel Marked: Twist[
ATTACH][ATTACH][IMG][ATTACH]Attachment 64194[/ATTACH][/IMG][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Attachment 64191
Attachment 64195
[ATTACH]Attachment 64198[/ATTACH]

“0” grade top lever on a 2 frame. Value is not a factor as family heirlooms cannot be measured in dollars and cents. Use it with proper light loads and keep her in good order then pass it down to the next in line for them to be the caretaker. If not a family gun value would be in the $750-900 range once held in hand for a visual. Double it at least for insurance purposes. Just my humble opinion.

Thank you. Any way to tell when it was made?
Oliver

Go to the PGCA Home Page, and on the left hand side click on the "Manufacturing Date by Serial Number". Looks like your gun was made in 1883

The right hammer is a replacement, and was not made by Parker Bros.





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Interesting. I noticed it didn't have the same detailing. I wonder where a replacement non-Parker hammer was located. Or was it a one-ff made by a local gunsmith?+

Those hammers were often taken from old rattle-trap parts guns. Often they were from cheap junker Belgian doubles that originally sold for $10 - $15.





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The gun was made in 1882 and should sport 12 gauge 32" barrels. Guns of that era had oversized bores for the most part. Likely in the .752 range rather than the now standard US size of .729. If you measure the muzzles for constriction add about .020 for a good approximation.
Harry

That's interesting. Do ou know why the larger bore?
Also can you reco9mmend a source for shells appropriate for this Parker?
Oliver

Oliver. Your family treasure has seen extensive use and is 136 years old. Please do not consider using the gun, with ANY load, until it has been evaluated by a double gun specialist, with particular attention to the barrels; pitting, wall thickness, etc. There are many Texas PGCA members, and one should be able to recommend a smith near you.

Drew, thank you for your caution. However, as I mentioned in my first post my Parker was sent to Griff8in & Howe for inspection and service as required. It was returned as ok for shooting. The bores, as earlier mentioned, are shiny without pitting or scuffs. The barrels have no imperfections.
I have full confidence in G&H.
You may not be familiar with G&H which was founded in 1923 and is considered one of the most preeminent gunsmiths in America, if not the world. For, instance G&H makes custom sporting rifles from scratch!
Paul Chapman is head gunsmith at Griffin & Howe, leading a team of seven. He is, according to the company historian, the “personification of Griffin & Howe.” Recently he made a series of six guns for the Safari Club anniversary in calibers ranging from .22 Hornet to .416 Rigby, the set worth around $350,000. “Today in the high-end market, you’ll see a lot more engraving, a lot more bling,” says Chapman. “The old Purdeys and Holland & Hollands were understated and subtle guns. But since the mid 1950s, you’re seeing more ornate guns with bright finishes instead of case-color hardening.”

The store is still slammed with work—more so now that they are producing a high-tech line of long-distance rifles on Griffin & Howe chassis-style stocks. The rifles are designed with the close involvement of marksmanship instructor Eli Stulmacher, a former Navy SEAL sniper.

“There’s still a clientele for a hand-built gun,” says Chapman, “even though a lot of this generation doesn’t want well-made, hand-me-down furniture. They want new. They want IKEA. But we can work on and repair anything that we’ve sold, and we can fabricate parts like hammers, springs, pins, and screws. That’s what made us famous.”

Oliver

I apologize for my confusion, but if Griffin & Howe indicated the gun was "safe to shoot", did they not indicate with what load?
Shiny barrels in a 136 year old gun with that degree of use almost always indicate previous honing. To give advice regarding a load, it is necessary to know the chamber length, and wall thickness at the end of the chamber and every inch of the first 12" of barrel, and MWT (and where). Were those numbers provided by G&H?
No criticism of G&H, or your gun, but things like this happen with vintage doubles

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413569865.jpg

Fair enough. They said to use light black powder loads. Short of a pressure test there isn't any totally accurate way to determine what the barrels can sustain. G&H stated that the barrels were not pitted and cleaned them as part of the servicing.
Oliver

Drew not to hijack Olivers thread but what was the reason of that barrel failure ?

Barrel failure? I don't know of any barrel failure. Where does that come from? In fact the barrel shows no dents bulges repairs or whatever. Which was confirmed by the G&H inspection report. The right hammer was replaced sometime before my great uncle inherited the gun in the 1930's.
Please let's not start destroying the gun with unfounded speculation.
Oliver

Oliver - Look about 4 posts above your last to see an example of a barrel failure. No one is trying to talk down your gun

I misread the post and thought it was about my gun. I agree that barrel failures can be catastrophic for the shooter as well as the gun.
Oliver

I'm not sure when paper shells arrived on the scene, but 12 gauge extruded brass shells used 11 gauge wads and thats about .750. I'm one of crazy ones that play Damascus and Twist Steel roulette. RST Shells make unequaled fodder for older guns. Their 2 1/2" loads of 1oz at a 1125 fps and 7/8oz at 1125 fps are a wonderful place to start. I shoot 10 and 12 gauge 1881 Parkers with Twist barrels with hand loads that keep the pressure at 7,000 psi and below. My 12 gauge Damascus Parkers are fed any 1oz factory load with velocities at 1180 fps and below. That said, Drew has a very valid point and his picture of the Parker who's chamber gave way proves it. Many old guns steel has crystallized and you can almost see it in Drews photo.

Harry

That's good information, thank you. Hand loading makes sense but I confess that I do not have the patience. The only time I tried it was many years ago in Va. long range ground hog hunting. 22/250, 20 lb barrel and with match Sierra bullets, Mannlicher double triggers with 20x Scope. Friend using the rifle got one at 1,100 yards. He had been on the 1st Army rifle team!

Oliver

Good to see you kicking around with all your fingers.:)

A while back I posed a question about steel crystallization in these old guns and our resident metallurgist Edgar talked about it. I think I was refering to maybe fluid steel guns that can have thin barrels, but he put that thought to rest. Obvioulsy the forging process in these twist and damascus is different and there some instances of failures from innerstructure corrosion from years of early abuse and pitting.

“Innerstructure corrosion”. As a layman I can’t imagine a more insidious-sounding barrel affliction.

If it does exist in a set of barrels, there seems currently to be no way to check for it.

Barrel thickness gauging would be irrelevant to determine its presence, extent or the frangibility of the metal affected.

“Shiny”; “pitted”; “bulged”, “dented” and “scuffed” are all observable, manifest descriptions of metal surfaces. Conversely, “innerstructure corrosion” is inherently latent.

Drew H. has said elsewhere on this Forum that: “No standards exist for radiography of pattern welded barrels, and x-rays can not differentiate between defects within the barrel wall, and pits on the interior surface”.

And further, “It has been my hope that a NDT expert with access to testing facilities, and doublegun interest, might develop a pattern welded barrel evaluation service. To my knowledge that has not yet occurred”.

Are there any recorded mishaps that with reasonable assurance can be attributed to “innerstructure corrosion”?

Long answer, and the short version of "Zircon's" metallurgic study of the GH & VH barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...K7G9IBs4g/edit

Short answer

Welds can fail

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../247636155.jpg

Properly fabricated pattern welded barrels do NOT develop "orange lace"; "interlaminar elecrolytic [sic] corrosion" nor embrittlement (crystallization)

Freshly cut twist and crolle damascus barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../409066906.jpg

Looooong answer
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hIiY62Hx4/edit

With the wads available back at the time your family Parker Bros. was made, the recommendation for these guns was to use over-size wads -- 9-gauge wads in 10-gauge guns and 11-gauge wads in 12-gauge guns. Note the loads No. 56 and 57 for Parker Bros. guns in this 1886-7 Chamberlin Cartridge Co. catalog --
Attachment 64310
Attachment 64311

These old Parker Bros. guns with their over-size bores have been used for the last hundred and twenty years or so with regular wads. Over-bore barrels have been in and out of fashion throughout the history of cartridge shotguns. Today we have a number of trap shooters banging away with Stan Baker "Big-Bore" barrels with .800-inch bores all the way to the choke?!?

Russ, do you mean 'Inter-granular Corrosion? This is a condition where attack takes place withing the grain boundaries. Generally associated with Austenitic stainlesses, and not unheard of in inadequately heat treated carbonsteel.
I can, as least conceptually, see where corrosive residue from primers and powder, will form acidic compounds given enough moisture. This would be much more serious in pattern welded barrels, less so in carbon steel barrels of reasonable metallurgy and sound heat treat practice.

There you go Edgar, wonder where you had been. I remember you using that proper "inter granular corrosion" term and definition last time we talked about fluid steel and it probably not being an issue. Welded, twist, Damascus etc. a little more opportunity in process and if not cared for properly for maybe an issue to arise. Nothing is risk free.

Oliver, beautiful family heirloom. I have an 1881 under lifter that I shoot occasionally with very light loads. It shoots just fine, breaks targets and drops birds with no problem. Take it out and enjoy your family gun!

If G&H said it was safe to shoot I would order a flat of 7/8 oz. loads from RST and go shooting. They are smokeless loads but the pressures will be low. Probably lower than many usual black powder loads. A lot of us shoot guns that old with RST loads. The photo of the blown up gun shows a gun blown up with a hot, modern, sporting clays competition load.

There is even a question or speculation that a least on one of the occasions mentioned where there was a cataclysmic failure there might have been an obstruction or even a double charge. Nothing is risk free though.

Probably the odds of being killed in a car crash driving to the range or going hunting are greater than a gun blowing up in your face if you take reasonable care.