Can chokes be opened by shooting over many years?
 

I never thought that the degree of constriction could be lessened by shooting. However, I just restored a Trojan that was owned by my uncle. He bought the gun in 1921 new. He used it hard over many years on ducks and pheasants. The checkering was just about worn off. He took care of the gun but just about all of the original finish was missing. He ordered the gun with modified and full chokes. I know for a fact that he never altered the gun in any way. I am the second ownert of this gun.

My dillema is that the right barrel is now almost cylinder. The left barrel is about improved modified. Barring a mistake at the factory, it would appear that the chokes were opened by many years of shooting. I never thought this possible. But now I am questioning my thoughts.

I would find it surprising. I know of a family friend who has an old family parker that has been hunted and shot hard at trap and skeet, and its chokes are still factory.

It's a real dilemma for me Bill. I never thought it possible. Maybe the most logical answer is a mistake at the factory. But he successfully shot ducks with that gun for many years, some at long range. I am baffled.

Did he use steel shot??

i would think you would need to shoot some sort of abrasive material to affect the chokes

lead certainly wouldn't, steel would bulge them but not wear them

He was dead long before steel shot. He shot Ajax Heavies mostly, some of which I still have. He really liked the varnish type finish on those shells. He said they were the most water resistant.

Thinking about it, I have another theory. I used a Galazan choke gauge because I don't have anything better at the moment. But I can't imagine it being that far off. Also, I feel no resistance when pushing a swab through the right barrel. I get a lot of resistance on the left barrel. I don't think that this is a mystery that will ever be resolved.

Due to lead residue I have a 28 gauge that was ordered F/F but when I first brought it home it measured XXF/XF due to lead fouling and never having been properly cleaned. Obviously happened before shot cups came about.

The factory might have had a slightly different interpretation for chokesX.000" than we do today and shot cups of today play significantly into that.





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My 28 bore Holland leads up terribly when not using shot cups. I have to really work the choke area after each shooting session. The lead is difficult to remove and it takes time. It is bored IC and Full. I never use shot cups for my grouse shells. Question for you Dean....tell me how you use Frontier pads to clean up rusted bores.

I always thought a choke determination in most of those records was based on how many pellets of certain shot size and load amount would hit in a circle at a specific yardage. They would test fire and then would count the result and labels gun choke in records and even put the results with a tag of the gun. I think this could result in inconsistent vagaries. I think the modern methodology we more heavily rely on now looks at the constriction measurements. Obviously there could be some deviation and the original process could have a lot of inconsistencies but if gun performed within an accepted standard of deviation then it was labeled a certain way.

It could be interesting if you had the actual test results of gun that came out factory labeled as such and then reapply the same method today see if there is a big difference. Lots of variable could change results, like shot deformation. Lots factors to consider even the use of a modern shot cup.

Todd, I think with the Trojans they were all choked F/F & F/M and IC/M on the twelves without necessarily adhering to a pellet count.

Tom, I wrap a moderate amount of Frontier pad around a brass brush, attach it to a cleaning rod, chuck it up in a cordless drill, dip it in Hoppe's and go to work on the bores. Frontier Pads will NOT harm the bores at all.





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Is that true for just the Trojans Dean? If not, at what grade could one expect to receive a gun along with a functional test, that's papered? Were guns provided with the actual target used to determine pellet count or was a simple notation made somewhere besides the record book (in some cases I suspect)?

Good points Todd. I'll have to get a letter on the gun. But I can't imagine Parker leaving little choke in the right barrel for a gun that was ordered with 28" barrels and modified and full choke. Frankly, I don't think the dilemma will ever be resolved.

Scott, Parkers were only provided with two hang tags - one of which listed the shot size, the target size/distance, and the shot count from each barrel.

Trojans may have had such a hang tag but, never having seen one, I don't know. I do know they had hang tags - the one I started hunting with at age 13or 14 had two tags but they were illegible, being oil soaked and grimy.





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I have a now 87? yr old lady duck hunter friend who shot the choke clean out of an Ithaca Mod 37, but she was using steel shot. She had a screw in choke installed and kept on shooting.

Shooting even a gadzillion loads through a gun will not "wear out" the chokes. Is this gun still on face Tom? That would wear first.

To establish the "choke" for the gun you would have to take the choke diameter then subtract it from the bore diameter and then pattern it on paper. Remember that the loads that the gun was patterned with are vastly different from the loads commercially available today. Unless you reload with fiber, filler or overshot wads the plastic shotcups and modern powders that most of us use are going to give you a totally different result. And yes the Galazan type plug gauge only measures the very end of the muzzle and they can be way off.

Best advice is to take it out and shoot some targets with it Tom. The proof is in the pudding. If it breaks targets hard on the skeet field then you got choke. If not someone has reamed the chokes. We don't live that far from each other Tom, contact me and I'd be happy to measure the gun for you and just maybe we could shoot a few targets just for the fun of it.

shoot it at paper, I think you will find if it was F and M it still will be if it in deed hasn't been touched. I shoot a lot of patterns and find with "opened choked " guns shoot tighter than they constriction say what they "should be". I have shot 12 ga guns with .013 of choke and get 60%, (mod) but should be closer to imp cyl, Try at test pattern at 40 yds and that will tell all.
scott

Question is when did shotgun manufacturers get to a standardized method of measurements of choke based on constriction and not by pellet count?

As example years ago went halibut fishing in Alaska. Wife, dad and son tag teamed and caught a barn door. After shooting it a couple of times with a 410 they wrangled it on board and measured it. They said it weighed 198 pounds give or take 2 pounds. Seems after about a 30 year study with thousands of fish measured and weighed they could estimate a fishes weight within 2% accuracy.

So in early 1900's when did they start just calling things choked a certain way instead of doing the pellet count after years of testing. Maybe the Trojan was the first gun in the Parker line to do this.

Tom I agree you may never know if gun has slightly changed a point or two on choke constrictions due to wear. Also as alluded to with less shot deformation occurring in a modern load the gun may shoot tighter. As long as it patterns around what your shooting and looking at I think it is what it is since I know you aren't going to change it.

BTW I have a Parker VH 16 that think is full and full originally. Right barrel I think is slightly more open after use and it is like an improved modified. Don't think it came that way from factory and fairly certain that gun was not reamed but I think years of shooting that right barrel first has maybe opened the gun a few points. BTW it is well worn but taken care of as well and most of the checkering is very smooth and I like it that way.

FWIW I have a 12ga Trojan 28" from 1913. It has .729 bores in both barrels with .021 constriction in the right barrel and .036 in the left barrel. The letter I have says it patterned 225 pellets right barrel and 250 pellets in the left barrel. I need to dig out the results of shooting patterns with it which is on an old computer but I believe it shot full and extra full at 40 yards with 1 1/8 ounce number #6 lead. As others have mentioned to figure this out you need a letter that hopefully gives chokes or pattern information, measure your bores and chokes and pattern it into a 30" circle at 40 yards. Plastic wads made loading shells easier for ammo makers, they don't automatically mean tighter patterns vs. old ammunition, antique paper shells can pattern very tight. In the end the only thing that counts for choke is the pattern it throws on paper.

Tom: here is a "Wear-And-Tear" Trial, but only 2500 shells
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA109

30,000 rounds with improved full choke pattern
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA227

W.W. Greener in The Gun; a gun used by "Schultze" for many years in which the pattern % improved over time
https://books.google.com/books?id=3HMCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA353

Thanks for all the responses. I haven't shot the gun on paper yet, but I will. That will tell the true story. I've owned the gun for many years. My uncle gave it to me when I was 18 or 19 years old. I shot it a few times but never hunted with it. I had graded Parkers for my hunting. He must have oiled the hell out of the gun over the years because the head of the stock was oil soaked and pulpy. The tip wood was cracked. It sat for many years, but I recently decided to restore it. I bought an original Trojan stock and Brian sold me an original Trojan tip. I've restored the barrels and wood and now just need to recut the checkering to finish it up. I like to do all my checkering at once and so when I complete restoring the other two guns I am working on, I'll do the checkering on all. Then on to the next batch of guns waiting for restoration. I like to work three guns at a time.

One more thing. All Parkers were hand fitted even Trojans. The stock I bought was only about 200 serial numbers higher than my gun but I had to do a lot of fitting to get the stock right on the metal. Luckily the new stock was proud of the metai so I had something to work with. Most of the work was refitting the wood around of the trigger guard and working with scrapers so that the stock looks like it grew from the wood. Adjustments had to be made to the wood around the safety housing and the tip required work to get it to fit properly.

That is awesome that you tackle restorations. Sorry to hear the stock on your uncles gun was punky. Being able to shoot that gun knowing he shot it would be special. To me it would be like a warm hand shake with him every time you hunted or shot with it knowing he was one that wore the checkering in. Even though you needed to do a lot to the furniture that gun is still special for you and hope you have many fond memories of it.

Good luck.

I have personally seen old guns - muskets and and breech loaders up here with the muzzles worn to a knife edge...that being said the oldtimers up here would load anything and i mean anything down the barrel or in a shell - cubes cut from tin sheet ,split peas ,pebbles ,coarse sand sometimes even lead if they could find it !

If the constriction of a choke could be worn away by lots of shooting then there would be tens of thousands of trap guns that were used in competition requiring new barrels or choke tubes. I put over 50,000 rounds through the barrel of a Remington 870TB and I bought it used. The choke never changed.

Thanks Todd. That gun is special and will never be sold. It will be passed to a family member with the history of the gun. I plan to hunt with it this year. I started restoring guns at 16 years old. I did a ton of Remington 1100's and 870's for friends. I would refit the stocks properly, make the stock look like it grew on the receiver and sand off all the horrible pressed in checkering and re-do it by hand, I stripped off the obnoxious RKW finish and gave the wood a nice oil finish. I worked on a lot of those guns before I ever touched a Parker.

When word of my work got around, I also did a number of Ithaca single trap guns for members of the venerable old Dutchess Valley Club in Pawling and a few Model 21's. I did a Purdy for the founder and owner of Business Week magazine, Elliot Bell. For this gun, I bought Purdy's slackum and rubbing oil finish. Each iteration is a two step process using the slackum and rubbing oil. Elliot Bell was a close friend of my grandfather and left me a nice 16 bore Belgian gun in his will and a full case of Eley 2" shells that he used in the Purdy. His wife sold the Purdey before he died when he came down with Parkinson’s. I was happy with the 16 bore. That gun and the case of Eley shells will never be sold either.

Good for you Tom.

I have a 1988 Remington 1187 12 ga . For most of its 30 years I've shot it with the IC remchoke (stainless, I think). A few years ago I noticed a burr forming around the face of the muzzle of the choke tube (all the way around). Still shoots well but metal has definitely moved. Have shot everything from dove loads to steel waterfowl loads through that barrel. Will have to check it with a barrel mic against a new IC tube....... your post just reminded me of this....!

Thanks Dean. Do you have to replace the Frontier pad and put new pad on for really bad barrels? In other words, does one stip of pad work for a bad barrel or does it wear out and have to be replaced? Sorry for so many questions Dean, but I've got a set of 10 bore barrels that are pretty bad.

Tom, I haven’t experienced them wearing out. I have used the same brush & pad for many different barrel sets... of course different gauges will require a different brush/pad setup.





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Tom, I have used Frontier pads for years in cleaning out the inside of my barrels. They work terrific. I might add that they are especially effective in cleaning muzzleloader barrels.

Thanks Allen and Dean. I’m anxious to try the Frontier pad on bores. Dean mentioned them in one of his posts so I bought some.

Was your choke gauge an internal gauge measuring the constriction or a drop in plug gauge that just showed the diameter at the muzzle.You need to know your nominal bore diameter and how many thousandths of choke constriction you have to determine your actual choke.Also,how does it look on a pattern sheet?It is very unlikely that the choke was shot out to cylinder.

I used the Galazan choke tool although I don't trust it. It showed cylinder. But I thought it would show higher if there was any choke at all. I'm going to pattern the gun when I finish it. That will tell the story one way or the other.

A dial indicator or digital bore micrometer is the only way to go. It may read 'cylinder' at the muzzle with a graduated drop-in gauge but the bore could widen several thousandths behind the muzzles for a few inches.

Counting pellet holes and doing the math to get percentages is tedious.

The only times I shoot at paper is to find POI and to determine what shot size gives the best patterns with a particular gun.



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Since I’ve been a kid, I've been shooting at paper to determine the pattern percentages at 40 yards and sometimes 20 yards if it is a grouse gun. I know its tedious to some but I enjoy it and it tells the whole story better than a dial indicator or barrel measurement tool. I pattern all my hunting guns with different size shot that I might shoot with a particular gun. I have a log where I keep the stats. It's how I found out that #2 patterned horribly with any of my duck and goose guns and that #3's patterned well with all my waterfowl guns. It's how I found out that the old pigeon load of 3 1/4-dram equiv. patterns much better than the typical 3 ¾ - dram equiv. loads commonly used with 1 ¼ of shot in a 12 bore. It's how I learned not to use 00 buck and use #1 buck instead. I get a ton of valuable information on all of my hunting guns. Patterning guns is the only way to determine how they will shoot with different loads and shot. Individual barrels handle some shot size much better than other. No two are exactly alike. Patterning a gun is the only way to get this kind of important information.

Yup, that's what I said in my third statement "The only times I shoot at paper..."





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I know Dean, but I wanted to highlight the point about patterning guns. If one does a lot of hunting, it is well worth the effort. And for me, it adds to my pleasure knowing just how my hunting guns perform and tailoring loads for each gun. It's part of my routine that I enjoy. I used my grandmothers bed sheets for my first patterning effort. She wasn't very happy about it, so I bought chart paper that comes in an extremely large pad. Plenty big enough for a 30" circle with plenty of room to spare.

Sometimes you can learn some interesting things beyond that. For instance I have a straight grip VH 12ga 28" with .013 constriction in the right barrel, it patterned 48% at 40 yards with 1 ounce of lead 6. I have a Remington 1900 12ga with 30" bbls and .014 constriction in the right barrel and it patterned 72%. One point of choke difference between them and one gun shoots Skeet/IC and the other Full. That is something very good to know whether you are hunting or shooting clays.

That's very interesting and it highlights that fact that the only way to determine how a barrel shoots is to pattern it. There are so many variables. The degree of restriction doesn't tell the whole story. Thanks for sharing that.