Three inch 20 gauge....
 

Anybody got a picture of an early 3 inch 20 gauge box? Like real early Widgeon Club gun era type stuff.

3 inch Selby - San Francisco -

Here are a few --

Attachment 63795

Attachment 63796

Attachment 63797

Attachment 63798

I love it that the 3" shells were loaded with 7/8 oz of shot. Something most of have know for awhile. I shoot 3/4oz loads in my 20's with deadly affect. 1oz loads wear on me. Don't get me wrong on recoil. I can shoot a .458 magnum with full house 510 grain loads sixteen times in rapid succession before I throw up.

yeah, I was shocked to see that the 3" loads were only 7/8 oz. All my 20 reloads are 3/4 oz also

Thank you gentleman, I really appreciate it. Was trying to educate an "expert" as the factory loaded 3 inch 20 gauge shells from my collection just weren't enough for him.

Destry

Back before The Great War, the heaviest loads offered in the "standard" 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell by our North American ammunition companies was 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing 7/8 ounce of shot. In the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch cases one could get 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot. The real or perceived advantage of the longer shell was more/better wadding. Note my box of Peters IDEAL above doesn't even have the hotter load.

The Widgeon Duck Club load was probably from the California Powder Company of San Francisco. I've never seen a box.

Relevant reading which might be of interest

Forest & Stream, February 27, 1909
“Small-bore Guns and Loads” discusses 16g and gives it to Hedderly ;)
https://books.google.com/books?id=nE...AJ&pg=PA337&dq

T.H. Grant, Forest & Stream, December 1915 - 3" shell 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. and 7/8 oz.
https://books.google.com/books?id=lR...J&pg=PA711&lpg

Edwin Hedderly Western Field editor after July 1910. His first DHE was ordered in 1911.
Arms & The Man 1915
https://books.google.com/books?id=BX...J&pg=PA158&lpg
Recreation 1917
https://books.google.com/books?id=4u...AJ&pg=PA97&lpg
Outdoor Recreation 1919
https://books.google.com/books?id=BX...J&pg=PA158&lpg

Forest & Stream, Nov. 1918 “Keener sport with the 20 gauge gun” Winchester M12 ad
https://books.google.com/books?id=b9...J&pg=PA663&lpg

Nice graphic on the shot shell box's. J.J.

10 20g ordered about 1913 for "Ajax Heavies" by United States Cartridge Co.??
https://books.google.com/books?id=Dy...J&pg=PT235&lpg

Ajax were available in 1912
https://books.google.com/books?id=CX...J&pg=PA469&lpg

Ajax Heavies were not introduced until 1923; Climax Heavies 1927.

Black shells from west coast

Lots of 12g Selby Load boxes here, and it appears they would be loaded in any case and with any powder
http://shotshellboxes.com/OnlinePric...a&smod=highest
a few 20s
http://shotshellboxes.com/OnlinePric...a&smod=highest

Selby Loads in 1913
https://books.google.com/books?id=UM...=PA90-IA16&lpg

My 20 gauge VH #153,333 was ordered to shoot 3 dram, 1 ounce loads. However, I don't remember seeing a box of these shells.

I've never seen a catalog offering these loads, but I have a box of them --

Attachment 63801

Attachment 63802

I hope this is not a dumb question but were people shooting these 3 inch shells in their short chambers, just to get a better seal with the "better" and more wadding?

How often do you see 20 and 16 gauge guns with 3 inch chambers during this time period?

My 32" 20 is 157499. It was ordered with 2 7/8" chambers and extra full and extra full.

I think there are more 2 7/8" and 3" guns out there than there are clean boxes of early shells made for them.

Holy crap, Harry. What (and where) do you need to put out a barrage like that?:rotf:

Jay

My 20/32 VHE was ordered with 3” chambers. It was also shipped to a hardware store in San Francisco so I assume it was for ducks.

I have d a BHE 20 with 32 inch barrels and 3 inch chambers also shipped to San Francisco. A duck club gun? Maybe.

This is a 1931 ad. The box at the top is a 12g "Arrow Express". I do not know when the load was introduced

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413946775.jpg

When Western Cartridge Co. introduced the 1 ounce 20g Super X load in a 2 3/4 inch case, Peters Cartridge Co. offered their High Velocity loads in the 2 7/8 and 3-inch hulls.

I searched through the first 2000 or so Ansley H. Fox graded 20-gauge cards looking for requests for long chambers and found 40 for 3-inch shells and 7 for 2 7/8 inch shells. Wonder if I'll live long enough to get back at it and do the remaining 1800 or so cards?

Requests for long chambers for 16-gauge guns seem to be few and far between. The late R.W. Harris searched the records and found nine requests for 3-inch shells and I found one for 2 7/8 inch shells.

Drew, those green Remington two-piece boxes were introduced along with the KLEANBORE priming in 1931. My guess is that my box of 3-inch ARROW EXPRESS 20-gauge shells must have been from right at that time but they didn't yet have a green box for 20-gauges and still used a cream color box. The Remington ARROW EXPRESS was sort of the parallel to some of the Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X loads that were put up in their high brass RECORD case while the bulk of the Super-X loads were put up in the FIELD case. The "regular" Remington progressive burning powder high velocity loads were called NITRO EXPRESS and were put up in their NITRO CLUB hull. The ARROW EXPRESS were progressive burning powder high velocity loads put up in their high brass ARROW hull. Just before WW-II Remington streamlined and they all became REMINGTON EXPRESS

Peters offered their High Velocity loads in a full variety of lengths by their 1927 catalog --

Attachment 63810

But, all their HIGH VELOCITY 1 ounce 20-gauge loads I've seen are 2 3/4 drams equiv.

Attachment 63811

I have only run across one vh 3" 16. It was at a little gun show in Illinois. I'm still kicking
myself for not buying it.

a j your question is not dumb...people did not shoot the 3 inch shell in there short chambered guns to get a better seal....and 3 inch chambered guns of those years were special order..fellows like us would have never seen one....to be honest i still have not seen one in person just pictures... would love to own one of those guns with 32 inch barrels and 3 inch chambers and extra full chokes....i was reading on one of the boxes here it said thier shells would kill at 70 - 80 yards and even farther....wish they would sale these shells again...i do like to look at these old shell boxes as much as i do guns...thanks fellas... charlie