Low pressure shells
 

Was curious to see if I can generate a list of commercially available low pressure shells.
Unfortunately for me the only ones I know of are Winchesters Low Noise/Low Recoil. Aside from specialty loaders (RST, POLYWAD) are there any others? I saw RIO has a paper shell out the 1886 at 1100 to 1200fps, but not sure of the pressures.

I would not suppose that because the Winchester is low noise/velocity that it is also low pressure. Maybe they are and maybe not.

Kent makes a 2 1/2" low pressure load. The problem is finding them. Fiochi makes a 2 3/4" trainer load.

Ken

The Winchesters run about 6000 to 6500 some hate em, some love em, for me they work fine, just messy! Curous to see if there were any others out there. I heard there is a B&P shell on the market that has lower pressures but not quite sure what it was called.

low pressure
 

herters low recoil,from cabellas

Dont know what the pressures are in the Herters, so have not tried them in my 1875 WW Greener hammer gun damascus, I did shoot them out of my Fox pin gun and a light Ugartechea 12 and the recoil is light--but not as light as my 7/8oz reloads using either Red Dot or Win AA Light. Would love to be able to shoot the Herters Low Recoil thru my damascus guns to save time at the reloading bench with the Mec 600 jr, have a Cabelas within 10 miles of me.

Low recoil is not necessarily low pressure

WW Xtra Lite 1oz load is about 7400psi.

Loving to play "Damascus and Twist Roulette" I will shoot any 12 gauge off the shelf that is 1oz or less at 1200 fps or less. When I reload I keep it under 8000psi.

I am not sure about todays loads, but modest Italian shells as described above were kept at lower pressures out of deference to the many old guns still in use.

Harry

Thanks guys for your input, I did some digging and came across Dr Drew Hause's site with these:

Modern Factory 12g Target Load Pressures
FPS PSI
Factory reported
RST (2016)
12g
Ultra Lite 2 1/2” 3/4 oz. 1125 4400
Falcon Lite 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. 1200 5400
Maxi Lite 2 1/2” 1 oz. 1125 5700
Premium Grade Pheasant 2 3/4” 1 1/4 oz. 1200 7800
16g
Ultra Lite 2 1/2” 3/4 oz. 1100 4600
Best (2010 - replaced by Falcon) 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. 1125 7720
20g
Ultra Lite 2 1/2” 3/4 oz. 1100 6000
Falcon Lite 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. 1125 7200

Kent/Gamebore English Field 12g
http://www.firearmservice.com/shopsi...ml/page19.html
2 1/2” 1 oz. Traditional Paper 1295 6526
2 1/2” 1 oz. Pure Gold 1295 7832
2 1/2” White Gold XLR 21gm (3/4 oz.) 1250 7975
In 2018, Kent introduced the Elite Low Recoil-Training 12g, 2 1/2”,
3/4 oz., #8, at 1200 fps; product code #E122L20-8.

Rio 12g 2 3/4”
TLT28SUB 1 oz. 1050 6900
TLSK28 & TLT28 1 oz. 1210 7900

B&P 12g 2 3/4”
Competition One 24 gr. = about 7/8 oz. 1160 7252
Competition One 28 gr. = about 1 oz. 1160 8122
2016
http://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/en...1/1/index.aspx
Convert BAR to PSI http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/psi

Kent - Gamebore
Non-toxic 12g 2016
Bismuth 2 1/2” @ 1400 fps 1 1/16 oz. - 9800 psi; 1 1/8 oz. - 10,000 psi
http://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/gam...mebore-Bismuth
Tungsten Impact 2 3/4” @ 1400 fps, 1 1/4 oz. - 9900 psi; 1 3/8 oz. - 11400
http://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-impact
Kent Elite 2018 http://kentgamebore.com/wp-content/u...talog-2018.pdf
2 1/2” 12g E122L20-8 Training Target 3/4 oz. at 1200 fps; 6700 psi
2 3/4” 12g E12L24-8 7/8 oz. at 1200 fps
http://www.huntstuff.com/products/Ke...0training.html


12g Independent testing
RST Falcon Lite 7/8 oz. 1214 5520
Estate Super Sport Competition Target 1 oz. 1192 8200
Winchester
(Note the Winchester AAHS 2-piece hull replaced the AA CF hull in 2004
and may have slightly higher pressures)
‘Low noise Low recoil’ 15/16 oz. AA12FL 980 6,200
Old AACF Xtra-Lite 1 oz. WAAL12 1,190 8,000
New AAHS Xtra-Lite Target 1 oz. AAL12 1,180 8,760
Old AA 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. Trap WW12AAP 1,200 9,600
Now listed as WAAM12
Super-Target 1 oz. TRGTL12 1,200 10,440
Super Sport Sporting Clays 1 1/8 oz. AASC12 1,360 11,660
Remington
Premier Nitro STS Sporting Clays 1 1/8 12NSC 1,320 10,160

12g Herters for Cabela’s 2016 by Cheddite, Italy
http://www.chedditeitaly.com/en/index.php
Field & Target 1 oz. 1290
Select Field Dove & Quail 1 oz. 1250
Target Low Recoil 1 oz. 1060 9,200 (tested)

A list of loads with shot and fps, but no pressures, including Hull, Eley, Lyalvale Express, Rio, Fiocchi, Gamebore & RC
http://www.justcartridges.com/cartridge-info/
Hull offers a “Subsonic (less than 1,126 fps) Very Low Recoil” 1 oz. 2 1/2” load.

Herters Low Recoil at 9200 PSI would be above my comfort level by a few thousand PSI.
Looks like I will stick to my reloads, although the BP 24 g loads would seem ok,

Pressure
 

I emailed Cheddite and they responded relating to Herters Low Recoil

Dear Sir,



12gauge Low Recoil 1oz. has velocity 1,060 FPS (recorded at 1 meter from the barrel) and 8195 PSI as pressure.

Instead 16gauge we don’t have any low recoil and any shotshell in 7/8 oz ,but only Dove and Quail 1 oz. , If you refer to this , the velocity is 1,165 FPS (recorded at 1 meter from the barrel) and 8775 PSI as pressure.

B&P marketed a low pressure 12ga called Sub Sound at 110 FPS but it's no longer imported. There is an Italian company called Clever that makes some nice shooting shells. The have a 3/4oz 20 at IIRC 1100 FPS but I don't know what the pressure is and haven't been able to find out. I suppose I'll have to send them out to be tested. I know I can't tell the difference between them and my reloads but that's not a valid comparison.

How do you resolve Target Low Recoil 1 oz. 1060 9,200 (tested) with
factory info: 1,060 FPS (recorded at 1 meter from the barrel) and 8195 PSI as pressure?

Typo? 8195 could be considered 8200 and typed as 9200. That's only a guess on my part. Personally I will follow reported factory specs.

Shotshell manufacturers are pretty stingy with their pressure specs although I have not tried to get any data from them recently. I am not sure it would mean much anyhow as their ooadings change as much as a woman changes shoes. Their specs can and does at least occasionally change from lot to lot. Twenty years ago we did a bunch of testing on factory loads after noticing patterning differences. We tested randomly over the course of a year and found pressure differences in the same advertised loading, i.e AA, STS etc., could vary by as much as 1400 psi. However, their reported velocities remained pretty constant. I would be very surprised if that were not the case today.

It leaves me in a quandary. I am sure I am not the only one. 8200 works in most of my old guns but 9200 is too much for some in my opinion. At 8200 I would use Herter's 12g. LP and not bother reloading except for the few. I have a few guns that I keep below 7000psi. I now load for 10, 16, 28 and .410 to get the loads I want or to save expenses.

Milt,

What do you suppose the pressures on that smokey argentinian ammo was?

Maybe, the old sxs community is hyping the need for low pressure just a bit too much. Especially since many cite the need to protect old wood. See Bruce Day's comments in past threads regarding the need for low pressure.

After years of trepidation and cleaning up after black powder followed by Federal Paper Hulls and IMR 7625 I quit worrying about it to a point. Sherman Bells "Finding Out For Myself" articles in Double Gun Journal where he blew up Dr Gaddy's GH Damascus Parker and my VH of the same frame size and same year of production. Both gave up the ghost at the same spot and the same 31,400+- psi. I am relieved of worry about SAMI pressures. Again, out of deference to the stocks and my shoulder, I shoot Off the shelf liter than normal loads at modest velocities out of 1881 Twist and later Damascus Parkers. As Alfred E. Newman said, "What, me worry?"

Gary, I have seen Bruce's comments on shells and I don't agree with them, as in the past twenty years I have seen in person two butt stocks cracked by "promo" loads, your mileage may vary, but to me that's a stupid way to save a buck or two............:eek:

I'm with Milt on this one as I don't really worry so much about pressures as long as they are below my own personal thresholds. But I load for every gauge I shoot because I feel my ammo is as good if not better than any off the shelf fodder. I also can't find the loads I want when I want them, so I go down to the loading chamber and crank 'em out by the 100's.

The commercial ammo manufacturers (except RST and other boutique loaders) have never been clued in on the pressure thing because they don't have to as long as they stay within the SAAMI limits for each gauge. Our guns fall into that boutique category. The rest of the shotgun world does'nt give a hoot about pressure or recoil and how it affects their modern guns. In reality it does'nt matter to them as long as it goes boom and the target or bird is hit. Gary is correct in that velocities and pressures in factory ammo will vary from lot to lot by virtue of differences in powder density, interior hull dimensions, wad composition and primer brisance, just to name a few.

The bottom line is it's your gun buy what you like and shoot, shoot, shoot. It's all good. If you worry about pressure and recoil, and you should if you are shooting a gun made more than 50 years ago, either you buy the boutique ammo or load your own. It's not rocket science and there is a tremendous satisfaction of bagging your limit or shooting a good score on the clays field with your own ammo.

Oh, by the way just to reiterate, pressure and recoil are not related. I don't care if you are shooting a Benelli 3 1/2 super jam-o-matic or a H&H Royal but they do matter and if you would stay on the low end of both, you and your gun will be better off. Don't get me started on 1400fps. or 2oz. turkey loads.

Nice photo Uncle Gringo Milty. I'm sure you were'nt hammering one of your Smiths with that South American ammo.:)

Mark... Where did you dig up that photo?

Milt and his lovely bride, and me and my family ended up at the same lodge in Argentina September of 2015. Milt and I bored everyone at the lodge into a stupor with our incessant discussion about double shotguns. The fact we both enjoyed Wine, Whiskey and good cigars cemented our conviviality!

Here are a couple photos. One is me receiving my 2,500 birds in one day shirt!

Now that's another " It's a small world" thing is'nt it? You are a better man than I Mark as I love to pull the trigger but 2500 birds in one day is a bit much for me.

I guess you could say "2500 birds and all I get is this stinking T-shirt"?:rotf:
Nice shooting.

EXACTLY!!

At right about 40 cents every time the gun goes bang, they can afford a few ballcaps and t-shirts....I actually shot about 2900 that day, but cramping in my left bicep stopped me there. A good friend and shooting buddy shot 3225 a month or so before, and I had my eye on that number, but i just couldnt raise the gun another time that day. That was my last full day, the last morning I switched to an O/U 28 bore, and shot 261/300 mostly one handed!

OUCH! I'm all happy when I kill 15 dove in an hour or so so I can imagine what you arm(s) felt like after that marathon event.:bowdown:

I remember Mark very well however I cannot remember a name. It is not because I am getting older. I was like that when I was 20. Credit to his memory and we did not care if we were boring the rest.

You can be sure I was shooting their guns which included a Benelli Montefeltro's and a pair of Beretta O/U owned by the owner's daughter. They brought them out when one of the Benellis broke and we lost some time. Probably after a million rounds and it looked the part.

Although we enjoyed each other, I never expected to run into Mark again. It is a small world and the pics sure brightened a really dreary day here in NJ. We were supposed to shoot clays today but the thunderstorms convinced us otherwis.

Mark forgot to tell you that at the end of the day professional massueses, trained in physical therapy were available to keep the shooters limber for the next day. They were beyond excellent.

The H & H lodges, booked by TREK travel were set up for a King. The lodge was luxurious and the service was beyond that. Coffee to your room at 7AM. End of the day coming back in the van were three waiters serving hot towels, the drink of the day and oeuvre d'oeuvres.

It was nice to live like that for three days!