Top Secret Covert Black Ops
 

Seems as if we have a conspiracy going on here! Are you guys shooting low pressure modern loads in damascus guns or not? Sure are a lot of hints and some folks alluding to those allegations. Reminds me of some investigation operations where folks know the outcome of some work but no one ever seems to know who did it, why, or who was under surveillance if anyone was!
Jerry

Yes, we are. Check barrel thickness first.

I think it is time to push the "THANKS" button on Ed Morgan. He has hit the nail on the head about step one in determining the safety of composite barrels.

I sure am...RST's or home rolled....the secret is out....:rolleyes:

I have never been afraid of Damascus barrels. I think we all should be respectful of what can happen with any barrels that have been honed too thin - or have had dents improperly repaired - or barrels that have had the chambers lengthened to the point where the area of the beginning of the cone is dangerously thin - or where pits or occlusions in the composite barrels compromise their safety, whether Damascus or fluid steel.

I shoot some known brand 'off the shelf' loads in some of my guns where I know the barrels are stout enough and in "light game guns" I use low pressure loads.

There's no conspiracy or nods and winks, my friend. I don't know a gunner who isn't shooting damascus, twist, laminate with loads around and under 7,000 psi without giving it a thought.

I shoot them with brand name shells up to the Parker service limits for the gun when I want to use hunting loads.

Jerry, I've heard that some people are even using those old fashioned bamboo fly rods to catch fish. Probably just little fish.

:biglaugh::biglaugh: :clap: Good one Bruce!!

Lay a graphite rod on the ground and jump on it, then lay a bamboo rod on the ground and jump on it. You can still use the bamboo rod, the graphite rod will be crushed!
Thanks for the info guys on the shells. I have a C grade in here now, has a safety issue, with damascus/ or at least non regular steel barrels I'm going to try & buy. It's a 16 gauge, I can see me formulating a trip to NY or Mich for a trial on grouse. Jerry

Jerry, what does that C show tha barrel steel to be? On the inscription on the top rib it will be either Damascus Steel or Bernard Steel if it is not "regular steel"? Nice! in any case. A sixteen gauge C grade is nice in anybody's book. I hope you're able to buy it... we want pictures please.

Jerry, what are "non regular steel barrels"?

I don't know, I guess I'm trying to say anything steel that's not damascus, twist or rated as not being able to handle modern loads. Jerry

What is a modern load?

?? Anyone?

Jerry, that's the point. People have identified "modern" loads from Winchester, Remington and Federal that are under the Parker service load averages on p. 515 of TPS. Then there are the high weight, high powder loads sold as Express, Black Cloud, Golden rack 'em or whatever pheasant loads that are not new but have been around under various names since the 1920's. These loads were not appropriate for most Parkers then and not now. "Modern" tells me nothing, just as a person asking you if they can catch fish with a bamboo rod. You're not going to go after a tarpon with a 4 wt......just match the load to the instrument.

If you can figure out tippet size, leader size, fly line, DT, WF, etc and fly size relative to rod weight and fish size, a person can certainly understand shot and powder charge and be match the load to the gun.

Well horse nuts, I just didn't mean to start splitting the metaphorical hair here on loads, I simply tossed out an uneducated, West Virginia, Appalachian term I guess that covers everything here in West Virginia that doesn't blow our hand off or our heads up! Jerry

Jerry, if a person doesn't want to understand loads and pressures and match the hatch a bit then in my opinon, maybe he shouldn't even try to shoot damascus or fluid steel Parkers. Hell Jerry , some folks aren't cut out to be fly fishermen either, and they should just stick with a Zebco and an Ugly Stick and pitch worm balls.

I stand corrected, they could take the easy way out and mail order RST shells.

I've used a Zebco and and Ugly stick, possibly at the same time. Been some 40 years ago, but I think I did that. More than likely there was a carp at the end of a hunk of Wheatie dough ball as well. I had fun with it at the time. I think all the experiences we go through add up to the sum of what we become. Sorta. Anyway, I didn't profess to know anything about loads, I'm interested in the concept of anything but blackpowder being shot in damascus/twist guns as I've always been taught that was a huge no no. So this is all interesting to me, please bear with me if I get some terminology incorrect or ask things that are old school to most.

Well you were talking about not having any use for The Parker Story and you were going to sell it. Don't. Read it and understand it and the lights will get brighter.

Older PH Parkers with Twist Barrels
 

I have a 1902 (PGCA Lettered) PH 12- 30" DT No. 2 frame- unaltered and with the later bolt tool steel wear plate- I shoot 2 & 3/4" dram Rem Green RST's in it for pigeons- and it is a pleasure to shoot. I also have shot 2.5 RST 1 oz. orange hulls in it- ditto- And if it wasn't for the Feds and steel or non-tox shot for webfeets, I'd use it for ducks as well-So enjoy your 16 Grade C- great bird gun indeed.:cool:

Jerry, please understand that Bruce and Bill are interested in furthering your "Parker education" and not intentionally beating you up but simply trying to understand where you are in terms of various aspects of guns and their respective loads. :coffee:

Hey Jerry,

As Bruce advised, please read the section on Proofing Barrels starting on Page 514, Volume II of the Parker Story. The chart on page 515 sums up the information. The section tells how good a job that Parker did in proofing ALL barrels.

But, just because a Parker's barrels can handle 12,000 PSI doesn't mean the 110+ year old stock can withstand a few boxes of 1&1/2 oz turkey loads. Please remember that:
- High pressure will wreck barrels and actions
- High recoil comprised of the total weight of shot, wad, and power (somebody correct me if I let anything out) will wreck old stocks (especially our favorite Elsie sidelocks)

So, shoot lower pressure loads (-8500 PSI) for day-to-day practice.
If your barrels haven't been reamed too thin then they should be fine for an appropriate load for the barrels.
For me, I would not shoot as heavy a load in a #1 Frame 12 gauge as I would in a #3 Frame gun. The barrels of a heavier frame gun should be thicker than those of a lighter frame gun.

Respectfully,
Mark

OK, I see now what's going on with this. I went back to the Parker book(s) and read all I could on the proofing. Wonder if other gun companies went to this much bother? Is anyone shooting L.C. Smith guns the same way? This certainly sheds a new light on some of these old guns that were considered wall hangers. I have a very early L.C. Smith gun that is nearly new in every respect. I cannot for the life of me figure out how it survived but it did and it's in pristine condition. I've always wanted to kill a spring gobbler with the gun. Hammer gun, Syracuse, 10 gauge, Quality 5 at least if not higher. It's not marked as to grade in any respect. I've owned over 500 L.C. Smith guns down through the years and I can say this one is about as good as the work is gonna get. The barrels weigh nine million pounds! I can't imagine after what I've read that light loads would hurt this gun. Thanks all, Jerry

Hey Jerry,

I short while back I believe it was Drew House who posted an LC Smith add claiming the Smith Guns could withstand any NITRO shells. I think the date was pre-1920.

I searched for the post with the add but came up short. Drew if you are reading this could you comment?

PS: I would trust my LC Smith Chain Damascus barrels as I would those Parker barrels of the same thickness.

Also, I have a Elsie "part gun" with good Chain barrels (missing half the bottom rib) and action. I have thought of doing my own Sherman Bell type test. Maybe open the forcing cones enough to accept 3&1/2" shells / 14,000 PSI. I do however hate to ruin those barrels...

Mark

LTC Calvin Goddard writing in Army Ordnance in 1934, stated that Hunter Arms proof tested 12ga 2 3/4" chamber barrels at 14,300 psi.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../386195959.jpg

Hunter Arms started using this slogan in the late 1890s

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../279125989.jpg

I shoot ducks with a 12ga 2 frame Bernard that has 6 1/2lb, thick, barrels and weighs 9 lbs. Don't like to carry the gun very far, its built like a tank, but it will really blast out the 1 1/4 oz , 3 1/2dram loads. Its more solid to shoot with heavy loads than a Mod 21. Then I also have another 12ga 2 frame 30" Bernard with severely contoured thinner barrels that weighs 7 1/2lbs. It likes 1 1/8oz, 3 dram loads or less. Both guns were proofed to the same standard but each gun is different on what feels best with it.

I shoot factory loads through each but choose the loads.

Lets take an example of a factory "pheasant load", say its a 12ga 2 3/4" Fed premium Black Cloud at 1 3/8oz at 1375fps. As near I can figure looking at load tables, that thing generates 11,000psi, and I don't know what in recoil. Some folks are shooting those out of Parkers. If its an older Parker, damascus or fluid with 2 5/8" chambers, then the gun was proofed at 13,700 with service load average at 9500. If a late Parker with 2 3/4" chambers then it was proofed at 15,900 for a service load average of 10,500. Safe, probably, but over the service load averages and hard on the gun and shoulder. I sure killed a lot of wild SoDak and Kansas birds last season with a 16ga loaded with 1 oz 2 1/2 dram Fed Game loads.

Jerry, If you go to Pintail Point this week-end you will see many damascus barrels in action. I will be shooting a 1975 10 ga Parker in the Black Powder event but I also shoot nitro in that gun. David

My heaviest bbl'd gun is an 1883 twist bbl 0-grade 12ga hammer gun with 32" bbls. I feel safe shooting just about anything within reason through it, that being any factory 2-3/4" 12ga shell of 1-1/4oz or less. I've shot quite a few old 3-3/4dram 1-1/4oz loads through it with no issues, and I do check it after every session with those shells.

Jerry, I took this double this year with my 1890 twist 10 ga. Hand load of 1 1/2 oz. copper coated #4

Whose copper coated #4s are they? Did you pattern test them to compare them with any other #4 shot? I patterned some soft #4s in a heavily choked Fox a couple of years ago and they about tore the paper out of the frame at 60 yards.

They where from Lawrence, I bought a 5 lb. bag. I have shot 90% patterns with this 32" gun with smaller shot #6, I didn't find the CC 4's to pattern any better than my standard shot.

I recently bought a GH 2 frame 30" Ten that is a little lighter in the chokes and on the arm. Deadly on the crows so far, should be fun on the walk up puddle duck hunting coming up soon.

Is your GH ten a Damascus gun?

Yes Bill, a 1889 gun 56630 .

Robert,

That is a beauty. I have a #2 frame Lifter that is a dream to shoot and is choked .030 from both .802 bores. I am pretty sure the barrels have been skimmed or reamed.

Harry

Thanks Harry.

Bruce, You are a top of the rung fellow the elite numero uno. But if you ever get caught hunting on this ol zebco toating worm fishermans land your going to have trouble getting in your o the cowboy hat don't suppose you have earned the right to were one. arrigent people just stick in my craw ch

Calvin,

I am sorry that Bruce struck you that way. I met him at the Southern about five years ago and he could not have been any nicer of a fellow to be with or shoot with.

Harry

Thats the thing about friends you can pickem:) ch

Calvin, How ya been ? You and I and some others here are the other part of this great country, Life is just to short. Still want that brass ? Have a nice day my friend.

yes, the stuff i bought works great wish i new the history of it. sent one to craig he got me the right wads capital fellow he is. ch