Old assumptions die hard
 

Old opinions and experiences die hard although they are sometimes based on flawed assumptions that become ingrained but are nevertheless incorrect. My recent challenge to Paul and others with respect to pressure being a factor in recoil is a case in point.

I started reloading at 14 years old because the then new plastic wads and wraps were replacing the old fiber wads in factory shells. I could no longer buy the short range loads I believed I needed. I did a lot of patterning back in the day with the new loads and the fiber wad loads. The loading companies stated that the patterns with the new loads would not be smaller, just denser. But, at least in the guns I patterned, the patterns were definitely smaller at 20 and 40 yards, the ranges that I patterned my guns. The first year I used the old Lee hand loader which could be purchased for $9.98. It worked and I got my fiber wad loads but it was slow and sometimes the plastic shell crimps would open. I always had to empty my pockets of shot at the end of the day.

The second year I bought a MEC 600 Jr. and I was in heaven. I then purchased a loading manual and found and loaded low pressure loads. I equated low pressure with low recoil simply because my low-pressure loads kicked a lot softer than the factory stuff. I was certainly sensitive to recoil changes in different loads when shooting at paper. But my low-pressure loads were coincidently also low speed loads. I attributed the softer recoil to the pressures but in fact it was the speed of the load that was causing the decrease in recoil. For 54 years I believed low pressure equated to softer recoil and never realized the flaw in my assumption.

Then some of the boys on this site set me straight. At first, I was reluctant to believe them without proof from someone with a ballistics background, so ingrained was my long-term belief. But then I saw the light and mended my thinking. I was just reading one of my old books by Michael McIntosh and he pointed out that pressure has nothing to do with recoil. I felt a bit ashamed of myself for being so wrong for so long. So, I am coming clean and I am going to punish myself. I am sending myself to bed tonight without supper.

not an uncommon assumption

as i have said before-for old guns, pressure is for the barrels - recoil is for the wood

Go ahead and eat, it's not too late yet. You and thousands of other reloaders believed the same thing as noted by the same question on various shotgun related sites.

Another urban legend that drives me crazy is this 1400fps hyper velocity crap needed in shotshells to reduce the lead needed on long crossers. Ballistically a round sphere is not very efficient. The faster you launch it the quicker it slows down so at 40yds. a load started at 1150-1200fps. will be within +/- 50fps of a load started at 1400fps. The only measurable difference will be the brutal recoil of the faster load.

I'm glad you have seen the light Tom. Now we just have to work on that #9 stuff for grouse.:)

I got into a bit of an argument one day on the clays range with a hard core registered shooter about shotshell velocity. He was claiming the 1300 fps loads he was shooting cut his lead in half. After we got back to the clubhouse we did the math. I think we used 30 yds crossing at 45 mph as criteria. It turns out that the increased velocity did in fact reduce the lead required - by 4 inches. Most people cannot perceive 4 inches at that distance. The next time I saw the guy he was still shooting his screamers. My dad used to say "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up". I think that little ditty applies to a bunch of folks.

Tom, don't discount pressure as inconsequential. It certainly affects pattern performance.

I'm glad you have seen the light Tom. Now we just have to work on that #9 stuff for grouse.:)[/QUOTE]

Nice try Daryl but that one is going to be a lot tougher to break. My perspective on small shot on grouse came originally from my grandfather and grouse hunters he knew, some of whom I talked to about the subject in their later years. They used 10's including one who shot for the NY market when it was still legal. It worked well for me and I have taken a very large numbers of grouse over the years with #9's. It made sense to me in tight cover to throw 7/8 oz. of shot with 506 #9 pellets vs. 302 #7 1/2. Plus none of the great books by Spiller, Foster, Schaldach and others recommended 7 1/2 for grouse. In fact they all spoke against it.

I will probably go to my grave touting the advantages of #9 for grouse. We all have to decide for ourselves what we think best but this is one area that you and I are going to have to disagree on Daryl.

I don't discount the impact of high pressures on patterns. I will always chose the lower pressure loads. For example, my low pressure old pigeon load for 1 1/4 oz. shells for turkeys, ducks and geese at around 1200 fps. are wonderful patterning loads. Much better than the hot 1350 fps. or better 1 1/4 oz factory loads. I've patterened them all and the slower speed lower pressure loads provide the best patterns, by far. I could never see the logic of high velocity loads in any gauge.

And I could never understand trying to cram more that 1 1/4 oz. in a 12 bore or 1 oz. of shot in a 28 bore for that matter. All it does is create a lot of recoil and long shot strings.

Low pressure, moderate speeds and sensible loads for each gauge is what makes sense for me.

Tom some times those old assumptions never die. I have taken information in print from shotshell and powder mfg's to the local gun club and tried to convince them of this more than once. I really don't think I ever converted a single person from their thinking that pressure translates to recoil. I have tried so many explanations it's ridiculous and finally realized that when you show it to them in print from scientifically conducted experiments and they still won't buy it that it's time to give it up.:banghead: Welcome aboard !

You guys convinced me. I see the light. If one doesn't accept proven facts he is a fool. Now that I've come around on pressure, I hope Daryl sees the light and comes around on #9's for grouse :). I'm going to work on him.

Daryl, I was thinking the same thing.

If you want to see some nice patterns try 1 1/8 oz of shot in a 10 bore.

I think I'll do some testing on #9 and #10 shot at the gun club tomorrow. The targets will be a pair of Duxback bird pants that no longer fit, my old Shott leather motorcycle jacket that I no longer use, a pair of heavy duty Levi Strauss jeans, and a pair of similar Wrangler jeans for brand comparison. What was the old story about two guys who shot at each other with #9 skeet loads, starting at 60 yards, and progressing five yards toward each other after each shot? The first one to bail is the loser.

Better not do any testing Bill. I've seen how you bleed with just a few tiny thorn pricks. Don't shoot up those Dexback pants either. They are collectors items and command big bucks on the market. I never had the pants but I do have an old Duxback bird jacket. In my mind, the best ever made. I have a Filson also, but the Duxback is the best.

Good grouse loads
 

1 oz old Win and Peters 16 ga 9 shot. Original paper loads. I have about 100 left. Should last me quite a while.

What you have there Bruce is the ultimate grouse load, 16 bore, 1 oz. of shot, in my not so humble opinion. I love the feel of paper shells. And make sure you smell them after you shoot them. It is a wonderful and unique smell. Maybe I can cut a deal with you and you can send them to Daryl.

Maybe I'll share my grouse coverts with him some day and show him, first hand, the error of his ways. :)

No doubt. I haven't loaded any 1 1/8 10 bore loads yet. I load 1 1/4 for ducks and geese. I haven't used a 10 on clay birds yet. But I will. The 1 1/4 oz. load in a 10 bore at around 1200 fps. is the ultimate duck and goose load, in my opinion. Great patterns, low pressure and short shot string, no doubt.

The old market hunter I often talk about used the 1 1/4 oz. ten bore load of #10's for market grouse before the turn of the 20th centaury. That is one man I would have liked to have met. He died in the 20's.

The grouse woods are in spitting distance.

Nice Bruce. Nothing better than grouse hunting our your back door. I had it for many years. Wake up, grab breakfast and out the door with dog and gun. We had bayberry bushes in the yard. The grouse love them but they didn't come into the yard until the slimmer pickings with winter. All the bushes had loads of footprints around them in the snow. Also you could always see wing marks in the snow where they took off after feeding.

I'd really like that Tom. I agree that the smell of a freshly fired paper shell is right up there with the scent of Hoppe's #9. But if I'm going to shoot 1oz. of anything it will be out of a 12ga. I've found the 3/4oz. load in a 16ga. gets the job done for me but I can appreciate you loving that 1oz. load. It's a classic load for that gauge

I also just noticed you also live in Maryland. Allow me to extend an invitation to shoot some clays, and birds in season, at a club I belong to in Northern Balto. Co. or at any other club convenient to you. I bet I could make a real smallbore (20, 28) shooter out of you with just a little work.:):rolleyes: It would be nice to put a face with a name.

I'd love to meet with you Daryl. I am familiar with that area. I do a lot of fly fishing in the Gunpowder River. I hunt grouse mostly with a VH 20, a GH 20 and a 28 Holland. My grouse hunting is done in my home town of Pawling, NY. I am retiring in a couple of weeks and will sell the Maryland house and move back to the family home I own in Pawling. But I plan to buy a townhouse on the Eastern shore that my wife will live in. She wants to stay close to the kids. So I'll be back down in Maryland a lot.

I used to do a lot of trap shooting with the little 28 bore Holland, low gun for the hell of it. I've had many 25 straights with it and once broke 23 at the 27 yard line. It's amazing what that little gun will do with 3/4 oz. of shot. It's bored improved cylinder and full with a single trigger. I set the trigger to shoot the full barrel when using it for trap.

For a low pressure 1oz load I'm migrating to, the closest bushing I have throws .2 grains less than the recipe calls for. Is that difference an issues? The outcome of the recipe is reported to be 5800psi and 1125fps.

Nitro 27
Win209
CB-4100-12
1 oz
16.5gr Clays
5800psi
1125fps

Bill, I'm not qualified to comment on the effects of 2 grains less powder. Others here can jump in. You might want to consider an adjustable charge bar and a digital powder measure. You can set the bar to get the exact powder charge you want and do the same for the shot. A one ounce shot charge weighs 437.5 grains.

Thanks Tom. I'm inquiring about .2gr as opposed to 2.0gr.

I measure 10x the throws along the way to make sure averages are in line.

Yes, sorry Bill. I left off the dot on the number 2

You can carefully file the hole in the bushing larger. Conversley, if it throws slightly more, you can usr tape or fingernail polish to lower it. Use a rat tail file. .2 light is nothing, your normal variation while loading will vary that much. I agree, a universial charge bar is great.

You're worrying about nothing. Shotgun reloading is not the same as pistol or rifle. If you can keep a + or - .2 grains you're doing really good. If you look at reloading manuals you see many loads go up and down 2, 3, or even 4 grains to get different velocities. My old 2006 Hodgdons manual doesn't show the 4100 wad, but all the loads with Clays have a 4 grain spread. At 5800psi you're at the low end. As suggested, take a file to the bushing. Even if you go a bit over you'd be perfectly safe and maybe better off. Try the next size larger bushing. I'd have to bet you'd still be under 7500psi.

As I have mentioned before when clays was hard to get I went to Clay Dot. The recipe I use is 17.5 grs. of clay dot
CB4100b wad
Win. 209
Ren. Nitro hull
7/8 oz. of 7&1/2
Comes out to right around 1175 to 1200fps and 5700lbs. pressure.
Crushes clays and kills phaesants.

Are CB-4100-12 and the "CB4100b" wads above the same item? Would think so, but my bag of 4100's doesn't have the "b" added.

I believe they are the same. Here is CBer contact info information@claybusterwads.com
Customer Service: 800-922-6287 they can answer your questions.

Just have to jump in on the recoil issue. I had a old SKB o/u I was shooting trap with and had a chance to buy a 34 inch unsingle barrel. It fit right on my receiver so I went out and shot 10 shells with the o/u then put the unsingle on and shot the last 15 shells. Shooting them back to back was startling as the unseeingly shot with much less recoil it was noticeable instantly. Weight is a good way to reduce felt recoil but that was not the issue as the 30 in o/u was about the same as the 34 single. The difference was the bore size the newer unsingle was a big bore barrel and that is what reduced the recoil I am convinced if that.The o/u was old and had tight bore vs the bigbore back to back was what made it so noticeable. We know stock fit and weight are big factors in recoil but I waS SUPPRISED on this experience.

To get back to the original question a few posts ago, .2 grains or 2 grains deviation is not going to blow up a gun. Pretty much end of discussion. Try to avoid any deviation, but don't worry about minor variations that you can't control because of less than excellent equipment.

It's real hard to hold an exact load. As Bill said " .2 grs is not going to blow up a gun." Most powder companies will send you a small reloading manual if you contact them and ask. Then you can sit down and compare different things that is hard to do by just using the internet. I also like them much more than the Lymans manual. The two main manuals are from Alliant and Hodgdon. Just ask for them over the internet.

Gotta get some of this stuff Tom ;) 1909

"Absence of Recoil, High Velocity, Perfect Patterns"
WOW :rolleyes: How did they do that?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413156056.jpg

Faster with less recoil & pressure!

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../410481187.jpg

Wow...I'll take ten pounds of each Drew. I love seeing the old ads for shooting related stuff. Schultze was a big name in powder back n the day. I collect old powder cans and I have a couple of Schultz. I also collect vintage shotgun shells in their boxes. Some of the designs and images on those old boxes are wonderful. Todays shotshell boxes are bland in comparison.

Thanks for posting the powder ads Drew. I sure did enjoy reading them.

Good choice Tom :) Schultze; the "Easy on the Shoulder" powder

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../401343599.jpg

The American “E.C.” & “Schultze” Powder Company was established in Oakland, New Jersey in 1890.
“Hard Grain Smokeless Schultze Gun Powder” was offered by Von Lengerke & Detmold in 1894
https://books.google.com/books?id=M1...pg=RA5-PA3&lpg

An advertisement for “E.C.” No. 2 appeared in the May 30, 1896 Sporting Life “...made especially for small loads from 2 1/2 to 3 drs.; for heavier charges, from 3 to 4 drs., use our ordinary “E.C.” No. 1.”

August 22, 1896 Sporting Life
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL2722021.pdf
“E.C.” No. 2 - “VERY QUICK INDEED, NO SMOKE, NO RECOIL, AND HARDLY ANY REPORT”

“E.C.” No. 1, “New Schultze”, and “New E.C. No. 2” were advertised by the company in 1902, which was purchased by DuPont in 1903.
In 1904, “New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” and “New Schultze” were listed as Laflin & Rand products.

In the later part of 1906, Sporting Life and Sportsmen’s Review carried advertisements for “New E.C. (Improved)”, “New Schultze” bulk powders, and “Infallible Smokeless” dense powder as products of E.I. du Pont de Nemours Powder Company.

In 1912 under the Sherman Antitrust Act, Laflin & Rand was dissolved and DuPont was split into DuPont Powder Co. (which retained DuPont Bulk, Ballistite, Empire and “Schultze” and was later DuPont American Industries), Hercules Powder Co. (which retained “Infallible” and “E.C.”) and Atlas Powder Co.

Some comparative pressures:
Forest & Stream, September 24, 1910 from The Field
https://books.google.com/books?id=mEkcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA510
42 gr. (3 Dr. Eq.) Schultze with 1 1/8 oz. shot = 9,598 psi (by Burrard’s conversion) Very similar to many modern 1 1/8 oz. target loads.
33 gr. (3 Dr. Eq.) “E.C.” Improved No. 3 with 1 1/16 oz. = 8,758 psi
33 gr. Smokeless Diamond with 1 1/16 oz. = 7,952 psi
33 gr. Red Star (New Explosives Co., Stowmarket) with 1 1/16 oz. = 8,322 psi

1897 Sporting Life

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../403955358.jpg

1904 McClure's

"E.C." & "Schultze" Smokeless Powders. The Gentleman Amateur's Favorite.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../410798860.jpg

these old ads and photo s really stand out compared to modern day stuff...some of these old desireable shell boxes will cost as much as a high grade parker.....charlie

The period advertising was absolutely wonderful. I never get tired of looking at it. Many thanks Drew for posting a glimpse of the past. My grandfather owned a Lithography company in New York City and he and the artists he employed produced much beautiful advertising back in the day. As far as I know, he never produced sporting related work, but the government was a big client and he produced many of the "Uncle Sam Wants You" work. He lived and worked in the city during the week and then took the train to his Pawling, NY home every Friday night and returned Sunday nights. His children, including my mother, loved Pawling and grew up there. I grew up there too and fortunately the hunting and fishing in that area is still superb. I am now retired and in the process of moving back to the Pawling family home to hunt, fish and live the rest of my years.

The absence of flip flops and wife beater t-shirts on the trapshooters is certainly refreshing.

Thank you sir. I just love reading the old ads and pictures of shotgun boxes.