Shotshell Pressure Question?
 

Any idea as to what the pressure level would be on these Federal 12’s?

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...tshells001.jpg

My guess from the speed and Dram equ. lite to moderate depending the gun your using. I would save them neet box are they paper?

I actually bought a few boxes, just for the boxes. Thought they would be great to store my BP brass shotshells in. The shells that came in the boxes are unfortunately plastic. I was just wondering if they would be safe to use up in my Damascus barreled Parker shooting clays.

Wow! That box isn't even scuffed. It appears as if it was just removed from the original case. Too bad the original cartridges are missing. As I am sure others will tell you, 'low brass' does not always equate to 'low pressure'. Most folks here load their own. I, and many others, do not load shotshells, but purchase RSTs or Polywad Vintagers. The latter two are loaded to lower pressures to save wear and tear and keep older guns 'on face'. Cheers!

This may be a stretch, but.....I am puzzled by the reference to velocity. Only in the past 10(?) years or so have I seen velocities on shotshell boxes. Plus, the cartridge illustrated on the box matches the contents. Also, the shooter is dressed in a fashion that, to me, pre-dates plastic shells. Is that Federal box some sort of a 'retro' product designed to coincide with an anniversary of some sorts?

I have no idea, but they had ten box cases of them for $79.90 a case.
The boxes I got, I picked right out of one of the open cases in the store.

Interesting! I have lotsa reference material for Winchester and Remington products, but nothing for Federal.

These were sort of an anniversary edition "Red Sweater" box, similar to what Winchester did with the Super X box. Original box is on top. Those are modern shells, might want to use caution in a Damascus gun!

Attachment 4942

Cool! Thanks, Robert. I 'Googled' for awhile, but came up empty-handed.

[QUOTE=Robert Rambler;23871]These were sort of an anniversary edition "Red Sweater" box, similar to what Winchester did with the Super X box. Original box is on top. Those are modern shells, might want to use caution in a Damascus gun!

So what makes the pressure high?
Is it the drams of powder "and or" the brand of smokeless powder?
This pressure thing is very confusing to me to say the least.
They were using smokeless powder back in the day before my Damascus
barreled gun ever left the Parker factory.

I have seen these shells at the local Gander Mountain, and have used their equivalent from Remington in a heavy #2 frame GH damascus 12 gauge. I would say at 1145 fps the pressure would be on the low side. Minimum wall thickness on the GH is around 50 thou so I am confident the gun can handle these loads, but I would hesitate to shoot anything much more potent because the gun is circa 1892.

Think I will just stick to my BP brass shotshells.
Just seems to be way to much uncertainty for me.
(though gut feeling, these old guns were built like tanks:-)
But then there is RST's and a few others doing it with smokless.


http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=4385

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Shotsh...le)-a059281213

http://community.discovery.com/eve/f...8/m/3661910099

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=3338

Mike, you'll find some helpful info here concerning Drams and velocity.

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

The "Drams Equivalent" business came about as the various dense smokeless powders began coming into use in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Prior to that both black powder and bulk smokeless powder (E.C., Schultze, DuPont, etc.) were measured by dram (volume), as black powder had been in earlier times to pour down the mouth of your muzzle loader. Shooters of the day had a warm fuzzy feeling for how their favorite load of 3 1/4 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ounces of shot (or whatever) performed. Then along comes dense smokeless powders such as Laflin & Rand's Infallible, Nobel's Ballistite and Walsrode, which are loaded by grains (weight). Joe Nimrod goes to the gun store and sees boxes of UMC Nitro Clubs loaded with 24 grains of Infallible and 1 1/4 ounces of shot, and he doesn't have that warm fuzzy feeling of how that load performs. So, the manufacturers came up with Dram Equiv. to put on their shell box which means this shell is loaded with enough dense (or after the early 1920s progressive burning) smokeless powder to give the same velocity as a 3 1/4 Dram load of black or bulk smokeless powder and thereby to give Joe Nimrod his warm fuzzy feeling and product loyalty. This this Drams Equiv. business should have gone away with WW-I and the companies should have began just putting the velocity on the box, but shooters are a hidebound lot!!

Just because you pick up some low brass shells at Wally World and they are listed as 2 3/4 drams equiv. and 1 1/8 ounces of shot (or any other load), doesn't mean they are any lower pressure then a 1 7/8 ounce 3-inch Magnum load. To produce lower priced shells the manufacturers use a lesser amount of hotter powders to give the desired velocity at a cheaper price. All they have to do is stay below the SAAMI spec. which for 2 3/4 and 3-inch 12-gauge shells is 11500 psi.

[QUOTE=Mike Stahle;23875]It is a complex interaction of amount of powder, burn rate of the powder, amount of payload, and velocity (and a few other things, too). But for simplicity's sake, take a one ounce load that gives 1200 fps velocity. You can achieve that with a fast burning powder that gives the payload a swift kick in the rear, and a resulting high pressure peak. OR, you can achieve the same velocity with a slower powder that gives the payload a gentler shove that lasts much longer down the barrel, but results in a lower overall pressure. Once the shot clears the muzzle there's no difference - you've got one ounce moving at 1200 fps. The difference is in the rate of acceleration down the barrel.

Now, with any given load, anything you "increase" (payload, velocity, or powder charge) will also increase pressure.

Finally, you must remember that most modern shells (unless they are specialty shells made for vintage guns) are designed so they will work well in the ubiquitous gas autoloader that the Average Joe shoots. According to a Federal rep I talked to once, they feel they need around 8500 psi or more for the shells to operate smoothly in a wide variety of autoloaders (including the ones owned by the guys who don't clean them much). If their shells won't cylcle the average automatic, they will get a bad reputation among their largest customer base. Plus, fast burning powders with high pressures generally require less of a charge than slower burning ones to achieve the same velocity, therefore they are more economical for the cartridge manufacturer (less powder per shell). In any case, I would bet that even what we call "light loads" in modern shells are still generating 8500 psi or more. (I'm not including the so-called Ultra-Light loads that the manufacturers don't recommend for autoloaders - they could very well be lower than that).

Remington Gun Club 1 oz. 2 3/4 dreq load (1185 fps) has a disclaimer on the box that the load may not cycle all semi-automatic shotguns. Some years back I called Winchester and asked them about pressures in their Xtra-Lite 1 oz. and their Featherlite 26 gram (low noise low recoil) loadings. They responded saying the Xtra-Lite load generates 8,500 psi and the Featherlite has 6,500 psi. (Remington would never tell me what psi their loads generated.) I have shot quite a few flats of both of these loadings out of various damascus-barreled guns. Some have questioned the effectiveness of the 26 gram load and let me say it is plenty effective. Yesterday while shooting doves my son Edward plastered a barn pigeon at 30 yards with one of these "Feather-Lite" loads using his tight choked VH.

Mike, many Damascus and Twist guns have never seen a black powder load. I have a little Damascus G 16 that was made in 1917. However, early smokeless loads probably have pressure readings lower than the modern promo loads. I don't use promo loads in Damascus guns or real thin steel guns.

What Ed said. Pressure testing by Armbrust for comparison:

3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz.
Winchester Trap Load
1,202 fps 9,600 psi

AA Xtra-Lite 1 oz WAAL12
1189 fps 8000 psi

AA 'Low noise Low recoil' 15/16 oz
980 fps 6,200 psi

Mike,

I'm sure that as you said, there were many Damascus barrel guns that never saw a black powder load. From family experience I know my Grandfather's 1890-vintage heavy 3-frame 12-gauge PH-Grade digested many many cases of Super-X and Federal Hi-Powers living on a farm in Minnesota with six growing boys. According to the family oral history Grandpa tried one of those new fangled Winchester Model 1897 pump guns but couldn't get use to it, so traded it off for this 1890-vintage Parker Bros. at Kennedy Bros. in the Twin Cities in 1901. My Father and Uncles would talk of Grandpa going by the Federal plant and getting buckets of slightly blemished shells, Federal "seconds" that they all shot in the old Parker. Similarly my Father shot nothing but factory smokeless loads in the three Damascus barrel Remington doubles he owned over the years. I doubt my Father, Grandfather and Uncles never gave a thought to pressures or chamber length. They were convinced that those Damascus barrel warnings on shell boxes were attempts by the manufacturers to sell new guns!

Drew has probably looked more closely at the old shoot reports, but I don't recall seeing a listing of a single shooter at the GAHs at live birds in the late 1890s and early 1900s using black powder. Capt. A.W. Money came to the U.S. in 1890 and began producing American E.C. and Schultze smokeless powders. I'm sure there were others before that. I seem to recall that Wood smokeless powder came out in the mid-1870s. It is all probably in one of Ed's books.

Dave

Any of you guys ever try this brand of low pressure shells?

http://neweraammunition.com/

I bought some of these also, in the commerative box and e mailed Federal as to the pressure. I received a semi generic answer back telling me to assume that all of their ammo was 10,000psi or more

Mike, I shoot alot of New Era ammo, matter of fact I think I have about five or six flats that need to be shot..... Nice low pressure ammo and if you need something custom load Brian will do it for you. Great company

Brad Bachelder is listed as a New Era retailer. I have tried Polywad Vintagers and like them. I noticed that RST seems to be the cartridge of choice with most of the forum members. Is there something about Polywad that I don't know?

Although Federal sent me the reply about 10,000 psi assumptions, I do not believe they are over 8500 psi and maybe less from shooting them. I don't shoot them in my damascus simply because of the recoil of 1 1/8, but millions of this nature have been shot in Damascus and laminated for over 100 years.

Is there an actual hard number used as a standard breaking point for high and low pressure determination?

I did the same this morning, anxious to see what reply I get back.

"High" and "Low" pressure designations are relative terms in regards to vintage shotguns. I use a rule of thumb of anything over 8,500 psi is considered high, and if you think your gun can't handle 8,500 psi (for one reason or another) the gun should not be shot. Period. Go read Sherman Bell's series in the DGJ.

Mark, I have shot Poly-Wad shells for year's before RST came out. Jay Menefee run's a great company,is very free with info and deserves at least some of our business. But I must confess that when I have to buy shell's and not shoot my reloads RST is my shell of choice.

Federal boxes
 

I received an e-mail sales flyer from Gander Mountain last week and they showed those boxes on sale for $39.99 per 5 boxes (125 shells). The flyer also showed they were sold out. Just guessing, but Federal probably had a sales promotion.

Then there's always the proof and service load table in the barrels chapter of TPS. People seem to want avoid that pressure information and invent their own pressure limits.

Guess its foolhardy to drive the old SL above 60 mph also.

Well guys I did the unthinkable with a Damascus barreled
parker and shot 5 rounds of these smokeless shells through each barrel today. :nono:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...tshells001.jpg
The old girl didn’t even flinch for a second. She said just bring it. :corn:
For what it’s worth, the recoil was noticeable less than the same load in
MagTech with BP. Wow! this old girl shoots a very tight pattern. :shock:
I repeatedly flipped an old 5 gal. Kerosene oil can over at 40 paces with this load of #8 shot. All the shot cups were found within 10 to 15 feet of the can. And for what it’s worth the barrel didn’t blow up or split, and I still have all my fingers. :)

Be careful in saying anything. You'll have the low pressure police after you.

I've shot thousands of rounds of moderate pressure factory shells through my damascus guns, as have other major collectors I know. One of the most significant collectors buys shells from Wal-Mart and blasts away with high grade guns, yet he won't say anything here because of adverse comments it would raise. Others buy Win AA Lights and Ultra Lights by the multi case lot, one even buys a pallet every year and fires away through a damascus AH.

But, over the years, I have seen several guns rupture. All have been fluid steel barreled. Proof positive that you need to be careful in shooting fluid steel guns.

Pressure VS Shot Column
 

Gentlemen: I was cleaning up the disks today, and came across this figure which appeared in Parker Pages a few years ago. It shows that regardless what the guys in the grey flannel suits say, chamber pressure is simply a function of the length of the shot column.
Parkers are strong, they will take a lot of heavy loads without saying uncle. Along the way to uncle , chips will appear behind the tang, and the stock will begin to show some space along side the tang.
Remember that 80% of Parkers were made when 3/4 ounce was a twenty gauge load, 7/8 ounce a 16 ga load, 1 or 1 1/8 in a twelve, amd 1 1/4 ounce in a ten.

Best, Austin

Hummm… have we lost our “you know what’s” that bad? ;)

An is it true question: I remember being either told or reading that a shotshell
will not rupture or blowup if it went off and or was set off outside of a gun barrel.
(NO this one I am not going to try no how) :nono:

I've urged folks to familiarize themselves with the proof and service loads table in TPS and to follow the shot loads for the gauge provided by Parker and reproduced in TPS, and as just restated by Austin. If a person keeps the shot charge down to what Parker recommended for the gauge and pushes that charge at moderate velocities, say 1050 to 1200fps, then most all the time, they will be below the service limits. And as has been noted by Dave Noreen, dram equivalents correlate to speed.

Some of the most extreme examples of low pressure police we have had here have been when they have told people who have heavy duck 2 frame 8lb 12's with .040-.050" wall thickness that they must shoot low pressure loads. That said, I'm not a fan of these 1 1/4oz or even more 12ga loads pushed at 1300-1450 fps that the manufacturers are making and touting as premium ( and costly) pheasant loads.

And Mike, I remember when I was a kid throwing a shotshell in the fire and running the other direction. Common sense prevailed and the expected result occurred.

Bruce,

Well stated! While Parker barrels in good condition should withstand high pressure loads the stock will be damaged. I think the action will certainly also loosen after a diet of 8500-11000 PSI loads! The steel grades of 1890 were not what we have today.

From personal experiance, this early season I took 5 geese using 1 & 1/8 oz of Nice Shot #2 at 1200 FPS and 7000 PSI. I dropped two of those geese at 50 yards. I think that I need to load some 1 & 1/4 oz Nice Shot for my Parker 10 gauges! One never knows when a 60 yard shot will be needed.. :)

Good shooting to all! Keep the pressure down and you'll be able to pass on your Parkers to the next generation!

Respectfully,
Mark

80,000 rounds later and the only part that loosened on my old ( 1921) PHE 16ga was the forend lug, which had to be resoldered. The hinge is still tight. Oh, and the hammer springs had to be replaced, and the ejector springs, and the top lever spring, the bolt plate replaced, the checkering recut, the barrels reblued, the stock refinished, and the trigger sears recut, and the ejector sears recut.....but other than that the action is tight, and most of those have been factory shells, and for the last 40 years 1 oz Rem and Win loads. More recently I've gone to 7/8oz loads for clays. Might help make the old girl last.

Here's the decrepit, well used 16ga, on the bottom...the top one is Charlie's usual bird gun, a VHE 12ga.

Another Old Illustration
 

Here is another old figure from the disc cleanup. It shows serial numbers and Parker events vs calendar year from Charlie's Serialization, TSP and other sources. The reason supporting 80% of Parkers being made for loads much lighter than the modern day is that s/n 200000 appears in the early 1920's at least 5 years prior to Super X and Remington Express.
By 1930 factory 16 and 20 ga loads exceeded the 10 gauge loads, and 12 gauge loads exceeded the ten gauge and approached the 8 gauge of 1900. The production graph shoes 50% of Parkers were made before 1900. The only steady plodder was the 2 3/4 or 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce twelve ga load.
Incidentally dram equivalent is not a complex concept; it is a load that produces the same speed as that amount of black powder behind the same shot charge.

Best, Austin

This thead has been interesting and a bit confusing. I've yet to shoot my 1920s vintage GH damascus barreled 12 gauge. I've been worried about the pressure question and other than a few manufacture getting pressure data for a given factory load is tough.

I'm beginning to thikn I've been worrying to much. The barrels measure like they have never been touched and the bores are in great shape. I guess pretty much any 1 1/8 oz. 2 3/4 dram load should be fine.

One quick question, the Bownell chamber guages stops at 2 5/8" so will plastic 2 3/4" shells be okay or should I go with 2 1/2" shells?