English Setter Grayson
 

Grayson has been with us for about 9 weeks now and he's about 17 weeks old. When we brought him home he weighed 14.5 pounds and now he is just a little over 30 pounds. He's coming along nicely and while full of energy and a bit mischievous, he obeys basic commands well. He's good with "Whoa", "Come", "Sit", "Stay", but more work is needed when there are distractions. At times he will linger a bit at the "Come" command, but usually a second command is all that is needed. I'll be working on that some more with him as well.

Most recently I've been working on the "fetch" command and it took him some time to figure out what I was trying to do, but he's got it now. He will chew beef bones so hard you can hear him from upstairs, but he retrieves toys to hand with a pretty soft mouth.

Still having some trouble with "heel", he just wants to be somewhere else. Does anyone have any experience with training their dogs to heel? Feel free to chime in with your thoughts. We just got a suggestion to try a collar called The Gentle Leader. It has a strap for the neck and another that goes over the snout. They are joined under the jaw and that is where you connect your lead. The old farmers' adage for farm animals..."control the head, control the animal" I guess is the theory behind this collar. Not sure if this is the way to go. He is still pretty young so I am not too worried about it, maybe just more time is needed.

Anyway, here are some recent photos:

Good looking dog! Where’s he from?

He's a Twombley setter from Coronation Kennels in Northern Vermont. His father is Coronation's Burdock and his mother is Coronation's Grace (Dean and Kathy Romig's setter).

That is a fine looking dog. Has a good shape and sounds like he has a solid disposition.

Trained and been around a good many really top quality dogs either for general hunting and some field trial. Its hard to tell someone how to train their dog since different motives and experience/expectations of handlers/owners, different breeds, and personalities of different dogs, but there are several good techniques to training heel without a lot gizmos if done correctly. As young as that dog looks you have done well to teach him those things thus far with any consistency. I commend you and your teaming for him to learn what he has.

BTW I have never seen a setter heel worth a flip, but most of the ones I knew were mostly exclusive bird dogs that stayed in kennels for most part unless they were out working/hunting. You are correct about him being distracted when he is out walking with you, his nose probably is dragging him one way and you want him to do something else. Be consistent and over time he will probably acquiesce and pick up on it, or he won't. I have seen plenty of bird dogs forced trained to retrieve, but getting them to do it in the field is different and have seen plenty of dogs compartmentalize training.

BTw when training to heel don't just walk in straight lines, just pick one side for him to always heel on, typically off shoulder or opposite of gun side. Work zig zags, box patterns into him and away from him, circles. Keep him in proper cadence and position to your side when he when out of sync tug on leash and say heel and reinforce at what position of heel at your hip you want him at. Work starts and stops and keep in sync. He is suppose to be paying attention to watching you walk. If he pulls ahead, walk towards him and pull him back, and also walk in 90 degree other direction. He will learn when at a heel if is ahead and cannot see you then he is not at heel and in sync with you. Also don't let him lag or trail a little behind, that is not heel either. Keep lessons short but intense, and do no more than a few times a day at first but so it at least once a day and praise him well when he does it.

I would also teach him "high on" or "hunt on", that lets him know when it okay to run amuck and let him be a hunting dog and explore with his nose. You will find this is the easiest command to teach.

My experience with teaching "heel" has been with Springers and Labs. Assume it would work with Setters also. I teach my dogs to heel on the side away from the gun. (In my case, that means the dogon the left side) I've never used anything more than a choke collar, and more often simply her regular nylon collar. Begin walking, and force the dog to keep his head even with your knee - never more than several inches fore or aft. Stop and start frequently - the idea is to teach the dog to react to you and your movements. I also force the dog to sit when we stop. As the dog progresses, speed up and slow down - the dog should now be keying off of you. Finally, I start walking in a figure eight about 10 yards long, The forces the dog to adjust his speed depending on whether he is on the inside or outside of the figure 8. While all this is going on, I keep the dog on a lead. You never want to give a command which you can't enforce.

Good luck!

Thanks for the input so far. Dogs are individuals and I agree that no single approach will work for all. My hopes for him will be as a grouse and woodcock dog with pheasants added in a little later on. He's our family pet too and he associates very well with people.

The distractions are mostly from scent. They have such keen senses of smell, it's hard to imagine what is going on in his head trying to process all that information. It is fun to watch him track scent and zoom in on the source. I'll keep at it a day at a time and I am fine with him developing at his own pace.

He's a handsome boy Ted!
Setters can be stubborn, Lord knows his mother is. Patience and consistency are key.
It's good that he is learning those commands because they are the basis of all his future training. He needs to obey them implicitly in the next several months. If he isn't completely obedient to those basic commands don't move on to more complex training until he is.
Regarding the heel command... Grace, being 3 1/2 has heel down pat but being a stubborn setter, ignores it from time to time especially with distractions of all sorts.
Her heel training consisted of keeping her on a short leash or a leash with a knot 2 feet from her collar. That would be held with my left hand (gun would be in my right if hunting) and in my right hand I would have a 3 foot length of 1/2" PVC which when she would move ahead after being given the heel command I would tap the front of her chest/neck area and command heel again. That gave her a clear picture that if she moved forward there would be an immediate rap to the chest. Certainly not hard enough to hurt her but just enough to get her attention back where it belonged.
I would recommend graduating to an electronic training collar with a variable intensity dial. Grace still has her first one which is ideal for both of us. She gets very excited when I take it out of her bag - it means she's going on an adventure and she'll be running free.

The one I use is a DT Systems H2O 1850. It has 16 levels of intensity in the 'nic' phase and separate button for 'continuous' which I will likely never use unless she chases deer, coyotes, bear or something dangerous to her. It also has a 'on point' horn. Completely waterproof too.





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Great looking pup!

Handsome boy! To get results almost immediately go to your nearest pet store and purchase a PetSafe Deluxe Easy Walk Harness in the appropriate size for your dog. This harness hooks the lead in the front (chest) of the dog and the lead comes up on the side that you are training your dog to heal by, in most cases off your left side.The Easy Walk Harness gently discourages your dog from pulling on the leash. When your dog pulls, the harness steers your dog to the side and redirects his attention toward you. The harness rests across your dog's chest instead of his throat, so there's no choking or gagging. The Easy Walk Harness is perfect for everything from teaching your dog to heel during daily walks to keeping your dog under control at the vet or dog park.

Run, don't walk to your nearest pet store and buy this harness. No need to put your dog on a "short" lead, tug on them or choke them. Your dog will be walking on a loose leash almost from the first five minutes. It will make your life and your dogs life and training much better i guarantee it. From this relaxed teaching method you can better move on to teach the verbal "heel" command with much less stress on your dog. He will learn much faster as a result of it.
And as far as using an electronic collar in this process, yes, by all means you can use one, but NOT until your dog has mastered the command using only positive reinforcement. Make sure you never use an E collar to TEACH a command, only use it when you are sure that your dog knows the command.

https://www.petsafe.net/support/coll...y-walk-harness

I agree with Dean that it's good to teach these dogs basic obedience and commands, which is actually contrary to what some bird dog traditionalists think. I know a lot of the old time bird hunters and field trial trainers don't even teach sit, stay, or heel. As explained to me they thought it broke the dogs spirit some or maybe put into conflict with listening for you instead of following nose and instincts while in field. Some also think bird dogs resented that and if they got freedom in field they thought dogs would hunt wider. BTW I asked about obedience a long time ago to some about their thoughts and those answers stuck with me. Are they right I don't know, there is healthy balance and compromise that you will find works for you. They will teach whoa and come and that's about it. But these guys also mostly don't have those dogs living under same roof and if you don't have some obedience then its all out war.


Good luck.

Steve, that sounds like an interesting harness to try and sounds like you had some good success with it.

I have always used a short leash. Remember he has the attention span of a gnat. Training sessions should be short and sweet. Don't try to teach to much (come,sit,stay,whoa ect) to soon.

You might want to rethink the "sit" command. I never teach a pointing dog to sit. Nothing more frustrating [to me] than a dog sitting while on point. I do teach a "stand" command which means stand still beside me. Useful when burrs need to be combed out, ears cleaned, or belling-up in prep for a hunt. No horsing around - stand still.

I have found "heel" seems a bit easier for pups to grasp the concept initially, if they have just a tad of the edge off them. Allow pup to burn off some energy first and he will be a little less distracted and better able to focus on what you are expecting of him.

No kidding about setters and burrs. I swear it must of been a setter in the burr patch that gave the swiss engineer the inspiration for velcro. Our setters were always dang good on points and honoring, I think told them whoa and standstill more picking burrs. Hard to believe how much energy they still have after long day hunting and full of burrs how squirmy they can be. Don't blame them though, it hurts having them things matted in and trying to get em out. Wore out at least a pair of shooting gloves a year picking burrs. I will say having pointers in the south is a benefit on burrs alone.

Velcro was invented by George de Mestral a Swiss electrical engineer in 1941. This idea of inventing Velcro came to him when one day he returned after a walk from the hills and found cockleburs stuck to his clothes and his dog’s fur. George noticed its natural hook and loop quality and started making a fabric fastener on the same quality.

Gary, forgot that was also a valid point the old timers told me about not teaching a pointing dog to sit, about sitting on point. I have never seen that happen but we did teach brittanies to sit and stay and never had that problem.

This is all really good information and lots to consider. I knew there would be a wealth of info to be found here and thanks to all for sharing. I will employ all of it as appropriate and according to how Grayson responds. Probably one of the key realizations for me is that he is still very young and there is time to take to get it right with him. If he doesn't respond well now, I'll keep at it at a slow pace and we'll get there. As Dean mentioned, patience and consistency are important.

The suggestions to keep the training sessions to 10 minutes or less and to let him run off some energy before a training session I think will work well with this pup. He's much more biddable after a mile or two.

I too know of many gun dog owners who have no need for some of the obedience commands. Their dogs are kennel dogs whose main purpose is for hunting, which is perfectly fine. For me, “Whoa” and “Come” are critical and should be fully ingrained as the foundation for further training whatever it may be.

As a gun dog strictly, “Heel”, “Stay”, and “Sit” are perhaps unnecessary. I like the suggestion for the “Stand” command as an alternative for “Sit” for the reasons stated (thanks Gary!) and I will be forever disappointed if Grayson sits when he points a bird. I don’t want to even think about how to try to correct that! My hope is that his pointing instinct is strong (there have been plenty of signs of this,) and he will lock up nicely. However, since Grayson is also a family pet, I am going to need him to heel and stay reliably. My wife and kids love to be with him indoors and out, but trying to keep an unruly dog under control and safe is not fun for anybody. So I will continue with these commands and get to the point where he is reliably compliant.

Lastly, thanks to all for your suggestions on collars and harnesses. I am going to try as many as needed to figure out which one works best.

You won't have to worry about Grayson sitting on point. He comes from a long line of fine bird dogs and they are known for their intensity on point. To me, a dog that sits when he has a noseful of bird scent indicates a lack of interest or intensity. It won't happen with Grayson.





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I have seen some Setters that actually lie down when they point. I was told (by the dogs owner) it's a trait some dogs have. Seemed a bit strange to me.

Setters were originally bred to lie down in front of the bird and language of the time called it "setting the bird", hence the name English Setter.

I have seen extremely intense bird dogs sit on point. It is not relegated to any one breed. I assisted a guy with a shorthair this past summer that had all the bird drive one could ask for. Unfortunately, he had moved from retrievers to pointers and he started this shorthair on what he knew - retrieving. It took me a long time to get the dog to stand his birds and then every once in a while he would relapse.

As in all dog training personal preference plays a significant role in the training. Personally, I would sooner avoid problems than try to correct them. I see no useful need for an English Setter or pointer to sit.

What a beautiful dog !!!!

I'm sure I am the only one with this opinion but I see sitting on point as a result of a flaw in the dog's training.





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Mr. Dean I would say part of what you said is true and to a certain extent many would be in violent agreement to your statement. That's almost like saying all plane crashes are caused by human error.

A lot of it is because owner/trainers fail to connect with each dog and learn its personalities, traits, disposition and yes that falls in category of flaw in how a dog is trained and for certain reasons. Seen many a dog ruined from too much training, lack of training, and flat out wrong training.

However they aren't machines and they are all a little different. Contrary to that have also seen certain dogs do things or develop habits all on their own.

There is a great story about River Oaks Corky, one of the greatest field trial labradors in history of the sport. Early in his training he had lots of eagerness, anxiety and aggressive approach in retrieves and one day developed a whine when being sent. It was all his and hard to break. They did teach him to be quiet and had command for it. Without fail early on if they did not give quiet command he would whine. Many years went by and won just about everything and he never really whined much and it was infrequent. Finals of large trial handler forgot/neglected/did not think he would do it, and did not give quiet command before sending, but sure enough he let out a whine on the final retrieve. Some dogs just own things in spite of what anything they are taught or not taught.

Time for an update...Grayson is about 8 months old now and he's grown to a solid 50 - 55 pounds. He behaves and minds well but still has trouble with distractions.

The last photo is as I found him after he had moved up ahead of me and out of sight during one of our walks. His nose was going strong so I assume he was acting on scent, but he was locked fairly solid. He held well as I approached and I tried to get him to at least extend his tail. While he remained staunch otherwise, he would not hold his tail up.

I am hoping to get him on live birds over the next month or so. Maybe a good whiff of scent from a close-by game bird will excite him enough to get that tail raised.

Great pictures Ted!

It looks like he will be as big as his maternal grand sire Coronation’s Earl who was about 60+ lbs.

Ted, when he’s on point make him “steady” and lift his tail manually and sharply rap the underside of his tail while repeating “Steady”. It’s a learning process for a lot of young dogs.

I can see by that first picture that he has a great fun-loving attitude.

One of his sisters has those all black ears too.



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Coronation Kennels/ Twombly setters
 

We had a brace of littermate males purchased by a doctor in penn. He brought them for Obedience and Bird training last summer, as a team they would stalk a sight bird with the lead dog crawling and the backing dog in full hi head point. They self taught this. Both these dogs are from Burdock of Coronation Breeding. Ted pm me your ph # so we can help with heeling. Graysons sisters are developing nicely retrieving to hand from land and water. :bigbye::bigbye:

Thanks Dean, I was wondering if the tail thing was strictly instinctive or if some sort of training can reinforce it. Thanks for the suggestion. He certainly loves to have fun with people and he is always in a playful mood. Still very much a puppy. Here he is at fishing camp...keeping an eye on what was happening out on the dock.

Tail or no tail.... That is one handsome Setter !!!!!

Ted - each dog has it's own personality and training requirements. A setter isn't always a high-tailed pointing dog and if that's what you want from him, he will need your encouragement and your praise when he pleases you - he will always try to please you.

Grace still needs reminders to hold her tail up especially early on in each successive bird season and on our walks and runs when she freezes on a "stink sparrow" or mourning dove or robin. At those times I 'steady' her and walk up beside her, hold her tail in the position I want it in and rap the underside of it as I say "Tail up! - Tail up!" She will hold her tail up after that.





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Hi Dean - thanks again for the advice. Not too concerned about getting what I want from Grayson as far as style goes; it's last on the list, really, of my concerns. That said, everybody loves to see a working dog doing its work with style and for me a stylish point in the grouse woods is special. So I will do what I can to encourage it. Holding his tail out or up...either would be fine with me. He does it at times so I know he can.

Twombly setters
 

My Grandad Earl Twombly said when asked about tail positioning,
" I'm much more interested in what the front end is doing."
We can all agree on that!:bigbye:

Wish I’d known him Legh.





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