Bite my tongue?
 

I recently went through an extensive and expensive gun repair with an outfit well known to those on this site. It was not without a significant amount of pain. Repairs were not done as promised. Ultimately I was disappointed.

I have shared my experience with numerous friends and other gun repair owners that I know and see or exchange emails/texts with. I keep thinking about the responses and similar stories I have heard about the same Gunshop. It is obviously troubling me (as I wish I had known them previously). So I am reaching out for feedback/thoughts on what I have learned.

I was "scolded" (this is a strong word - it was all in pleasant conversation but I heard their point) by two repair specialists for not calling out the bad experience on this or other forums. When reporting on my experience I chose to refrain from commentary - just posted the end product - skipping over the long painful saga and uncomfortable feeling I had with the end result.

The point being made by my friends (the repair specialists are indeed my friends) was that by not reporting accurately on my experience I had actually mislead all those who may choose to move forward with a similar repair at the Gunshop in question. I think that is why I am bothered as I think they are correct. I should have said something.

So..... should I have said something? Thoughts please.

WOW....I have been going through the same thing ...And I have the same dilemma Mark....These people do wonderful work but the communication and broken promises have been frustrating....to say the least....

and I should add also that things still aren't right and it has been a very long time.......

I think an important part of being part of a group like the PGCA is to share knowledge. Knowledge is power. And I for one would like to know the experiences our members have had with any gun related service providers. Both good and more importantly bad. That is just my thoughts.

There is a FAQ link at www.parkerguns.org that has a "Need a gunsmith" FAQ in its list that points off to a forum discussion about gunsmiths used and recommended by the forum members. If you are going to make recommendations for or against, I would ask that they be made on that forum thread so both positive & negative (respectful & accurate) information is shared. It would help us all to know how to find the best for our needs.

Thank you.

I have been scolded before and been basically told that because I am in the business that I am not to have an opinion or god forbid voice it. But... these are my thoughts on the topic.

I personally perform my work with as much pride as possible and I don't even take in jobs that I am not comfortable with or where I would not want my name attached to it.
For example, I am leery to even install a recoil pad or checker a stock on a gun that has been butchered up or poorly restocked or refinished. Because then, before you know it the story takes a life of its own and my checkering job turns into me having stocked the gun. I don't want my name attached to anything that I would not be proud of in its entirety.

That being said, I would be afraid to put out any work that was sub-par with the fear of people talking about it. And, I would fully expect people to talk about it. And, I would ask that if anyone was not happy with any work that I performed that they at least let ME know about it.

Anyway, with some of the experiences and horror stories I have had and heard about others in the business, it would really open some eyes if people told their tales and maybe prevented others from dealing with the same grief.

Unfortunately many others do not feel the same way, which I do not understand. They just want to sit back and let others learn the hard way I guess.

Yet in that thread, you ask not to share negative experiences. Only positive ones.

That may change, depending on how this thread progresses. When I started that thread, I had the same concerns as those that started this thread.

If it was Sears, Macy's, your car dealer or your roofer or plumber would you withhold his name?

This one is indeed a quandary and a tough one to wrestle with on moral grounds and maybe even a challenge to someones faith and sense of justice, hence there might not be a right or wrong answer but more of what do you think or feel. It is definitely a strong philosophical debate that will challenge most of the gray matter on any forum, maybe this one even more so and mind always justifies the heart. If the offense happened to a Parker then this is the right place to vent and some of the boys on here will be ready to form a posse to extract some vigilante justice, and it might be warranted. Not familiar with pictures you posted or your plight and maybe that guy should not work on anymore Parkers. It is still a buyer beware world.

My view is that any comment I make on a forum should be the same comment I would be willing to yell to the crowd from a street corner. In essence that is what a forum virtually functions as and maybe that should be your guide. BTW I am no attorney but whatever you do or say could come back to haunt you, just saying. I remind my kids all the time they don't need facebook or twitter and all that stuff because what ever you post on line is out there almost for eternity and they should be mindful. Its a different world than what we all grew up in, and it definitely is not any kinder just faster and never forgets or forgives.

That is what is wrong with the "gentleman's response" policy. You care more about hurting the feelings or embarrassment of the gunsmiths, and care less if a fellow PGCA member falls into the same trap. :cuss: If I have a bad encounter with a smith and give him a reasonable amount of time, without added expense, to correct it and they don't, I will surely let everyone know who they are, by name.

Bill

Double post.

slippery slope

I find the best way to express my displeasure with the services of an individual which I have previously hired is to say, I would not hire that individual again. In the case of gunsmiths, by refusing to elaborate you have protected yourself and communicated a warning.

Im a Plumber of about 33 years owned my own business for some time Was a member of the BBB and never had any problems . If someone had a problem with your work they might contact the BBB and your name was everywhere , Why cant we disclose these problems with gunsmiths ?

Can facts not be laid out, without becoming disparaging, or insulting? How about constructive criticism of an otherwise upstanding company?
Everyone makes mistakes now and then, no matter how otherwise stand-up they normally are.
The mark of a truly great business man is how he deals with his mistakes.

Amen

Not knowing who we're talking about. I'm guessing we're talking about an otherwise decent company.
I think if we were talking about Terry the Torch, or Hacksaw Hamhand, we would be having a different conversation.

If the subject gunsmith has been a well-respected and highly esteemed craftsman who may have done excellent work for possibly a great many of us, why would we necessarily shun him and point out his misgivings and possible misfortunes? Why wouldn't we as gentlemen, and more likely as Christians, offer our help in getting his business back to the standards he has always espoused? It seems something in his business has taken a turn for the worse and his customers may have been made to bear the brunt of it. I would certainly offer my assistance if I, or he, thought that I could.





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Very well said, Dean!

Responding to the original post, I too have gone through such an ordeal. Living in Arizona, I don't have the luxury of living near good doublegun gunsmith. So, I needed work done on several double guns and read all the reviews on this site about recommended gunsmiths. I was driving across country close to one of the gunsmiths and dropped off 5 guns or parts of guns for repair. The gunsmith was highly recommended on this site as one of the best barrel men in the country. He even has an add in the Parker Pages. Two of the guns had internal barrel pitting which I wanted removed. My instructions were to not touch the chokes. Leave the chokes as is, even if pitted. He gave me a price for all the guns which I felt was high, but I don't mind paying for the best. When I received the barrels back the chokes were 1 1/2" long! I asked him why and he said he reams them until he sees the end of the reamer at the muzzle. I looked up on the internet the proper way to ream barrels and there was a Midway video showing the length of the chokes measured and a stop put on the reamer to prevent reaming any part of the choke. I sent this video to the gunsmith in anger. I am still angry but nothing can bring back the full length of the chokes.
I too wanted to bring this up to the group but knew I would get scolded for stating negative but true comments on this site. I am even blaming myself for not just leaving the guns as is.

Dean, That is a wonderful thought and I applaud it ....But if we were talking about a couple of mistakes or a miscommunication this thread wouldn't have even been started. There has been months of promises, poor communication, excuses, guns that have gone back and forth multiple times. There is incompetence even though some of the work is exceptional. Believe me I wanted this to be a happy experience and it has been nothing close ..but one of the guns did come back beautiful after much pain. I could go on and on as I believe Mark could, but I am not going to do it.

FWIW I have run my own business for 45 years dealing with the public and at times things can get out of control with a customer. Things can snowball and get ugly. It happens to every business but there comes a time when enough is enough.

Marty,
I totally agree with your comments. I also am currently experiencing similar problems with probably the same gunsmith. I am crossing my fingers that the gun comes back as requested.
Wayne

Harumph! Harumph!

I truly get Dean's point and his posture resonates deeply with me and I identify with what he said when possible. It is hard enough to find good people to work on stuff, much less do a real quality job at a reasonable price, but we should never settle for over-promise and under-delivery, that dog never will hunt. Gunsmiths that know how to work on old shotguns is truly a cadre industry in decline. True we have become far too much of a disposable society, but that point probably resonates here more than anywhere or we would not be talking about working on and maintaining old guns. Whatever happened to TV repairman? Its even worse if you have a good pair of s hoes that need fixing. Count yourself lucky if you have a good shoe cobbler or can find one that does good work at a decent price. BTW next time you see him go give old Brian and Brad and other favorite gunsmiths give them a big hug for working on your guns, they are not a commodity, but skilled craftsmen. Obviously some are different than others. Maybe like comparing Norman Rockwell to Picasso.

I also think we don't know all the facts to form an opinion or jump to a conclusion with question posed, but did notice Marty provided a little more followup insight to basis of qualifying his position to Mark's question. All I know is that obviously you have quietly tried to work it out but are feeling less than satisfied and still have a rebuke and lack of a reasonable restitution. So we here at the court of public opinion awaiting your testimony, or not. Again it boils down to how pissed you are and if we should break out the stocks and start collecting rotten vegetables.:)

This is an interesting discussion and it is now on 3 pages. I understand Mark has an issue, but the work requested is not in the thread. The gunsmith or company must be well known, but not given.

Yes, there are different points of view between the customer and the shop. However, is the board too politically correct to not provide some details?

Ken

I would think if done respectfully, we are all adult enough and reasonably minded to handle what comes. P.C.card is now almost like a muzzle, or similar to pulling a gun on someone yelling some "ism" at you that does not exist. Nothing wrong with civil discourse if handled correctly, but a lot of people have lost an ability to communicate that way. Nothing wrong with treading lightly but doing it in way that makes a strong valid point without throwing someone under the bus, and that's probably the crux of the issue.

I think one of the the greatest gifts Jesus may have ever given mankind was his demonstration of empathy as the cornerstone of his teachings and miracles. Yup its a simple rule but tough to live by this loving one another business.

Even the best craftsman have problems.
The fact is, it’s not the problem.
It’s how the craftsman handles/resolves the problem.

"Even the best craftsman have problems.
The fact is, it’s not the problem.
It’s how the craftsman handles/resolves the problem."

In my case it is the problem since nothing can be done by anyone to resolve it. That is why I thought I had "The Best" gunsmith doing the work and being charged like it was "The Best" quality possible. No excuse.

Mark, without calling out the name of the shop, could you detail for us what the scope of work was and the resultant issues.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to post pictures of the work in question, maybe not give your opinions of the workmanship up front but let the discussion form its own opinion.

My philosophy on having work done by any craftsman is that I expect it to be done better than I could do it myself. That being said....I have sent Parkers to a large well known shop and paid a premium for work that I was immediately disappointed with. I got a quote for a proper fix, after I waited my turn and paid the high price, I received the gun to find a half assed fix and was told that was the best they could do. They went for the easy fix, rushed through other parts of the job, and failed to even address another issue. The only thing that was as promised was the price.

I'm glad to share my experiences with my friends, but I'm hesitant to announce it publicly. On the other hand, I would certainly like to know if anyone had a bad experience with a smith before I sent a gun to them.

Allen and others,

I could give you a very good play by play of my experience. But that is really not the point of my post. The details of my particular experience while important to me are not intended to be the focus of this discussion. Please forgive me if that was not conveyed.

The point I attempted to make (and I recognize I may not have written it properly) was along the lines of...... If we are only in the habit of leaving positive feedback about our repair/refurbish experiences on this forum - we could be leading our forum friends to believe all repair/refurbish experiences with a given shop will be positive. This was the point my friends the repair specialists I mentioned earlier were making. If there is a difference in quality between shops, but no one feels comfortable saying anything negative, even if a job did not goes as intended, and they were 'ultimately disappointed" with the results, how is the group properly informed.

Please understand, I actually empathize with this and every other Gunshop. Yes, I was/am disappointed. But I too, own a small business. We fix trucks and transport refrigeration machinery. I tell you that only to tell you this...... My company has disappointed our fair share of customers too. Lack of help, too much work at a given time, poor management in a given store..... the list is endless.....but recognize when that happens in my world, we are called out. The industry, like all of us, is connected through forums and social media. When we drop the ball, we hear it, and I believe it makes us stronger and drives us to not drop the ball.

I am friends/aquaintances, as many of us are, with many of the owners of the prominent repair shops we usually refer to on this forum. They are all good people, with families and problems and ups and downs just like the rest of us. I don't personally begrudge any of them. They have all worked hard to build up their business and become prosperous. We all attempt to do the same. With that said and understood I hope to stay big picture focussed with this thread.

The big question remains....should I/we say something on this forum if we are "ultimately disappointed"? ....or is that better left unsaid - an let the buyer beware?

Thanks all for the thoughts and feedback.

I think we are kinda beating around the bush here guys ! JMHO

The PGCA membership is composed of
1. Collecting individuals
2. Collecting individuals who are also occasional seller/ dealers
3. Gunsmiths
4. Gun repair materials suppliers
5. Gun store dealers

And I’m sure other categories.

So, you’re asking some members to start having public squabbles with other members? Nice
public name calling and squabbles on this PGCA owned communal forum that represents the entire Parker varied interest and business community ?

I view the forum as a place where folks can learn about this hobby (obsession?) that we have. It seems that we are more than willing to compliment someone for good work, so the community learns that, at least in that one instance, the poster was satisfied. Why shouldn't the saw cut the other way?

Yeah I’m not sure I understand why people seem so hesitant to post about a negative experience they’ve had.. This doesn’t seem to be an issue anywhere else. Maybe people just don’t feel as comfortble because several well known gunsmiths are members of the PGCA?

That is one of the eventual flaws, over time, of any type of group gathering. Objectivity is lost, giving way to always being polite, but not necessarily truthful.

Bill

That's part of it I'm sure Kirk - the other part is that not everybody (in fact, very few) have had negative experiences with (a particular) gunsmith and to post his name on a public forum paints his reputation with a very broad stain that may be impossible to undo even when the problem is remedied. It can be very damning to someone's livelihood.





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There are good gunsmiths on this forum who reap the benefits of being good smiths and being on this forum and PGCA members.

I seem to recall a previous post asking for feedback both good and bad about a particular company and those thoughts were shared by various members of this forum.

If you have a bad experience with a service provider either in the work contracted for, communications, problem solving ecetera then by not sharing the trials and tribulations your dealing with in regards to a certain shop then the rest of us may continue to regard shop X as a positive resource.

By sharing the problems your experiencing with shop X if someone wants to use their services they will have the upfront knowledge of your (or anyone else) bad experience and can address their concern and then decide if they want to move forward with that particular provider.

If this were a 'clothes collectors' forum and someone had a bad experience with Macy's, would there be hesitation to share the experience? Or is this more about not wanting to impact a small business owner (who may or may not be a member of the PGCA)

Dean is very near the essence here.

In fact, the entire rationale for the original post baffles me. If YOU have a bad experience, man-up and deal with it. Don't post your trepidations on the PGCA forum, secret the shop's name, and thereby cast a shadow of doubt on scores of good 'smiths, who might now suffer because of your urge to share indecision.

If you want to point fingers, or cast aspersions, do it on that other BBS, well known for its sewage.

PGCA should remain above all that.

This has been a very thought provoking thread with a lot of good points on all sides. I favor the no negativity side and here’s why: we are a very small fraternity that a few craftsmen have developed a relationship with to keep our guns in good repair. We shouldn’t use this public forum in a way that could harm their ability to conduct business with us. Every man on here is responsible for the guns in his possession. If, you’ve been around this game awhile you know who does work that you trust and can rely on. If, you’re not sure who to take a particular project to then there are plenty of experienced folks on here you can approach in a private, one on one manner messaging or phone or even face to face to get their input to help you make a decision. Relying on the comments in a public forum is not a good way to make your decision when better alternatives exist. Here’s why: everyone has a different tolerance level for what is acceptable as to good work. Some people have an axe to grind. Some people will never admit they made the mistake when they neglected to give proper instructions to a gunsmith. Some will chime in because it’s their buddy posting on the forum and they want to show support. And, some people just can’t be pleased. To say we should do it because it’s done on other forums and venues misses what I think is a very crucial point - We don’t need to do what people are doing on other forums to be successful. No one can or should try to stop anyone from talking about a negative experience. Trust me, there are a couple of people out there who have done work I consider less than acceptable. They have lost my business. If, I’m asked, in a serious discussion about who to send a gun to I’m going to try and steer them away from those people. I think that’s fair. So in conclusion, if you don’t know who to send a gun to then don’t send it until you have talked to someone you you have developed a relationship with that you can trust. Don’t rely on the internet to make your decisions. Don’t use the forum to lash out at someone who didn’t satisfy your demands. If, you had shoddy work done, don’t do business with them anymore and don’t recommend them anymore. Those guys rely heavily on word of mouth to stay in business. It doesn’t take long for word to spread amongst the connected as to who to go to and who to avoid. If, you aren’t connected then take the time to develop those connections. If you can’t or won’t do that then you’re probably going to struggle. I can see the wisdom of keeping the negativity off the forum. If, we help put these guys out of business who we going to send the guns to?