Is a greyed frame considered case colors?
 

I have looked through the past threads on here and even the archives and have found really only one discussion of this topic and that was I think way back in 2012.

The question is, is a greyed patina frame considered case colors? Is it desireable over a silver frame? Is it considered original?

I know in the other conversation-it came up as they were discussing how to consider % of case colors. Dean at the time considered a grey frame to be case colors and Bill Murphy had the opposing view at that time.

This is mostly just about my curiosity and trying to start what I think could be an interesting and educational discussion.

In addition, would you ever consider recasing a gun with a grey frame? The argument could be made that no gun left Meriden with a grey frame so it isn't original.....(trust me I have been in enough conversations on originality of tractors, cars, and other accoutrements over the years to know someone would make that argument).

Also, many complain about shiny nice case colors on a gun that is old and aged...Well, what if the rest of the gun was well preserved with pristine barrels and very nice original finish on the wood and good checkering, is the grey patina a clash with the quality of the rest of the gun?

Just asking and trying to start some discussion:

Personally, at this time, I like the grey/gun metal patina on a frame. It would be nice to have original case colors, my 2 barrel set DH actually has some blue and yellow colors remaining on the metal, but it would also be nice to own a high condition BHE but there you have it :)

Looking forward to the responses.

Example of a greyed frame

https://i1.wp.com/www.dogsanddoubles...013/12/234.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/www.dogsanddoubles...377444-7-L.jpg

One with remaining faded case colors

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture...pictureid=8335

And because we all like eye candy, here is one of the Parker's Mr. Day has shared in the past showing what aged/preserved original case colors look like today:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachm...1&d=1266939105

IMHO

Case is case. Faded / protected areas / or bright

Grey is grey

Some times, you can have a frame with some of both

I do not see any case in the first picture (although pictures can be deceiving)

Varying degrees in the others


One thing that is a given is remaining case is subjective

No the first two "grey" pics do not show traditional case. In the discussion in 2012, which you may have posted in Rick, the argument was made that the grey patina was case but faded or aged. Thanks for the input.

In the picture one and two I see faded case colors faded to gray, on picture three I see case colors on that receiver. Picture four not sure if picture was doctored or what but something is wrong on that pic. Just my opinion

Bruce says its original and no one else questioned it when he originally posted it.

I take him at his word about it.

you can see the original post here.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1441

The definition of a greyed frame to me is one that has lost all of its case colors. It is case-hardened, but no longer has any case colors.

Colors are a byproduct of the hardening process. The hardness is not compromised if the colors are removed either naturally or intentionally.
The only way to effect the hardness is by annealing.

There is really no functional reason to re-case harden a frame.

I was just curious about people's preferences. Along the same lines there is no functional reason to rebrown a set of damascus barrels is there?

I actually like the gray patina look after the case colors have worn off. I would refinish fluid or Damascus barrels, refinish the stock, but would not re-case color a gun.

Yes there is a reason for refinishing barrels... to protect from rust.

I feel the same way usually although I guess it depends what condition and how original the gun is. I decided to have the receiver on my Reproduction redone only because I had so little $$$ into it anyways, and I don't see it hurting any collector value. But yeah, I like the look of the gray patina as well.

So if there is no pattern on the barrels there is no rust protection? Just curious i didnt think the pattern itself provided the protection.

he did not say pattern - he referred to finish

be it composite or fluid - bare steel will rust sooner than steel with a finish on it

Yes and the comment he originally replied to was one of me asking if there is a functional reason to rebrown a set of damascus barrels in response to him saying there is no functional reason to recase a gun. My point being that many things people do to refinish/restore these old guns has no actual functional purpose.

Typically when people speak of rebrowning their damascus barrels it is simply because the pattern has become too faded, very rarely does it come up in topics on this board that they are rebrowning the barrels because they are afraid they are going to rust from lack of protection.

I am not disagreeing with him, just discussing the finer points of the topic.

OK, here goes. Refinishing Damascus barrels can be done without any harm to the engraving or other features of the receiver or other parts of the gun. If the Damascus redo does not come out well, it can be redone without any harm to the gun and its originality. Damascus pattern, done well, is not as hard to make look original as case color. Case color, done improperly, is hard to correct, and compromises the originality when redone. If I knew of someone who would refinish Damascus properly and stay in business long enough to do a few sets for me, I would be very happy.

I suspect that by taking out of context that which I am quoted as saying, my meaning may have been misconstrued.

Bill, can you please post a link to that original conversation or at least to my post?

Best, Dean





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I definitely can Dean. If i misconstrued your meaning i apologize. I also apologize if someone thought i was being rude to Brian, i was just trying have an interesting conversation about what i think is an interesting topic. I have eay too much respect for Brian and others on this board to be rude to them i assure you.

Mr. Murphy, thanks gor your input. I entirely agree with your statement. The same can be said for checkering as we have seen multiple times. For the basis of this conversation let us assume the work would be done correctly.

Again not trying to ruffle feathers, just looking for an interesting conversation and enlightenment.

Dean, here is your post that i do think i misconstrued the meaning of.

"In my humble opinion case color remaining, not worn off, even if it has gone to gray, is what should be considered when specifying percentage remaining. I'm sure there are those collectors (like Murphy...) who would insist on only vivid color remaining, but that formula would not necessarily speak to the 'wear' factor."

I do apologize. Your perceived position one way or another wasnt avtually germain to the discusion except for me explaining what motivated me to start this

The rest of the thread can be found here.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...light=confused

This will teach me to go strolling through old posts.

Bill - no apology necessary. And I stand by what I said in that old post.... but taking it out of context actually did misconstrue what I had said.

Thanks for bringing it up in its entirety Bill.

Best, Dean





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Brian is correct in saying there is no functional reason to recase color a receiver.The reasons are strictly cosmetic.In valuing a gun,a recolored gun will bring 30% to 40% less than an original gun that shows even traces of original color.Originality is what drives the price on any collectible gun.Another reason not to recolor a gun is the risk of warping the action.It does not happen often,but it is a risk you take when you recase harden any metal.

And another risk is the possibility of a result that may be far removed in appearance from what we know original Parker case colors looked like.





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This may be nit-picking, but don't we really know what original colors look like after 100 or so years? Do we really know what they looked like when built? Isn't there some possibility they may have faded over 100 years?

Sure they have faded over time.That is what you want to see.Normal fading or patina,not bright vivid new colors.The purpose of grading guns by the amount of case color remaining on them is to give an indication of how much the gun has been used and handled.In over 40 years of handling Parkers,I can only remember 3 that were original 100%coverage case color guns.They were effectively museum pieces that had been put up since they were built.

Yes, we know what original case colors look like. There are collections in private hands containing Parkers in near 100% original condition - I've seen a good number of them. I had one in fact, a sixteen-gauge Grade-1 T/A Hammer gun in about 99+% original condition. It is a benchmark gun and there are a good number of others, as I said, in private collections.

Yes, we know how they looked when they left Parker Bros. and Remington Arms too.






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Dean - I don't disagree that there are original unmolested guns out there. What I am saying is that we only know what those guns look like now. We don't know if they looked that way when they came out of the factory 100 years ago

Grey receivers can be artificially created with a little muriatic acid and a damp basement expedites the process. It also removes rust, oh sorry, patina as a side benefit. Brians right about wearing through case with the the possible exception of the AH pictured in the most recent DGJ