Pressure
 

I just found some 20ga shells made by an Italian company called Clever. These by all accounts seem to be low pressure shells. They are 2 3/4, 2dr equivalent and 3/4oz of shot at 1200FPS. There is NO recoil to these and I've shot them successfully from my fluid steel barreled guns. Using the load data on the box would anyone have any idea of the pressure? They seem very similar to my 3/4 oz reloads. I can't find anything from RST as to how much powder they are using for a comparison.

Send me two flats and I will test them for you.:whistle:

They aren't expensive about $55/flat. I have one set aside for you.

You can send some to Tom Arburst and he will pressure test them for you.

I thought the same thing about Herters 12ga LR 1oz loads. Had Tom test them and they were 9000psi

Clever makes a low recoil 7/8oz in 12ga load that is very soft. I paid $60. Per flat at the Sarasota gun club. I wish I could get them in NY.

Wow, those would give me alittle more time off from the reloading bench if the pressures arent too high for damascus. I currently shoot 3/4 oz using 15.5 gr 20/28 at around 7800 psi per the reloading manuals. I will look out for some of those.Thanks for the heads up

9000 lbs. seems kind of high for damascus. I have been loading 7/8 oz. with 17.5 grains of Clay Dot with a clay buster 4100 wad. According to Alliant's web site it's rated at 5800 lbs. 1150 fps. Been using this for two years now. The load doesn't have much recoil and as mentioned the pressure is well within the ball park for use in damascus barrels.
Tom

Does anyone know what dram equivalent of powder your using? The Clever shells are 2 Dram Eq. How does that translate into grains?

since the archaic "drams equivalent" is just an approximation of the power of that load compared to black powder

2 drams equivalent is equal to the power generated by 55 grains of BP according to the chart i have

do any of the reloading recipes give that?

Rich,

The best and smartest thing to do is to send 5 shells to Precision or Arburst. Precision will get you results in a week once they receive it. This way you know for certain what the PSI and velocities are.

I couldn't find anything what the dram equivalent of a 2 DR 3/4 oz twenty gauge load but I came across this from the Remington website. Note the warning when trying to guess powder grains in relation to dram equivalents.

Dram equivalents were originally developed in the early 20th century to allow sportsmen an easy method of comparing the "new" smokeless powder loads to the then more familiar black powder loads. In effect, a shotshell with a 2-1/2 dram equivalent rating would be equal in velocity to a shell loaded with 2-1/2 drams of black powder--making the assumption that both shells contain the same amount of shot. Overall, the most important thing to remember is that the higher the dram equivalent, the higher the velocity for a given shot weight and, as a result, the more powerful the charge. There are no real dram equivalents for loads that didn't or couldn't exist in the black powder era. Key examples of these are steel loads and some of the heavy magnum turkey loads.

WARNING: Dram equivalents values have no relationship to the actual powder charge in a shell! These values should never be used in determining smokeless powder charge weights!

Confusing dr.eq. With drams is exactly the reason Damascus, Twist, and other composite barrels got the bad rap that demonizes them even today.
Back when "dram equivalent" first came into use and for quite sometime afterward some ignorant folks were loading their own shells with black powder 'dram' loads of the modern stuff and the consequences were usually catastrophic. But it had nothing to do with what the barrel steel was. I would venture to say that fluid steel barrels may even have suffered the same failures... But at the time there weren't nearly as many fluid steel barreled guns in circulation.





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Anyone have an address for either Precision or Tom Armbuster?

Tom Armbrust
Ballistic Research
1108 W. May Ave.
McHenry, IL 60050
815/385-0037

Rich,

Click on the link from the Precision website for the information you need.

https://precisionreloading.com/view.php?pg=shot_proof

If you ship UPS, be sure to follow these instructions what to write on the box and copy of the label to identify what's in the box. It's best to do this before going to the UPS center. When I went last time I had just the sticker on but I didn't write on the box "cartridges, small arms ORM-D" because the directions from Precision just said put on the label. The clerk warned me he wouldn't be able to ship it. When I asked why he said "I'll tell you but I'm really not supposed to." I was like, "waahhhat???" Didn't make any sense.... In any case, just make sure you have everything what UPS wants per their website...

https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/re...mmunition.html

This could be a whole new thread, but what are the pressures that you use as a guideline when shooting your damascus, twist, laminiate barrels for the different guages.
I try to keep 12 ga under 7500, 16 ga under 8ooo( most are 7000 or less), and 8000 in 20 ga.
Typically shootinf 7/8 oz in 12's, 3/4 and 7/8 in 16's, and 3/4 oz in 20.

Harold, I think those p.s.i.'s are good choices and these guns will probable even take more... but why take chances. I keep most of my 'composite' pressures pretty close to those or even a bit less.





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Would some of you highly knowledgeable folks please publish a book with the specs, pressures, etc. of the known commercially-available shells for those of us who are ignorant of such things (I assume I'm not the only one :eek:!) :)?

i would expect every shell would need to be tested, since companies do not share the info -

and if they change powder suppliers - all bets are off

This might clarify things

Black, Bulk & Dense Smokeless Powders, and Dram Equivalent
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...?f=13&t=455407

Phil: there is a (limited) list of factory published and tested shell pressures at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

As to "What loads should I use in my Pattern Welded barrel" see toward the bottom
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

The easy answer is "Loads for which the barrels were designed", and we now know the pressures of those loads.
I believe Pattern Welded barrels without defects and with adequate wall thickness may be used with pressures similar to that which modern loads would generate. That said however, I DO limit shot weight and FPS for lower recoil in light of the now more than 100 year old wood and lock-up.

Rich, if memory serves me correctly, a dram is 27.3grs of BP by volume. If using 2F the weight and volume are just about the same. A 12ga 3 dram 1 1/8oz load should give you 1200fps. I'm not sure but think a 2 1/2 dram 20ga load is also at 1200fps. Oh, received your email about the knife.

12g 2 3/4”
1 oz.
2 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1235 feet per second (measured 3 feet from muzzle)
3 Dr. Eq. - 1290 fps
1 1/8 oz.
3 Dr. Eq. - 1200 fps
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1255 fps
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. - 1300 fps
3 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1365 fps
1 1/4 oz.
3 Dr. Eq. - 1165 fps
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1220 fps
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. - 1275 fps
3 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1330 fps

16 gauge 2 3/4”
7/8 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1145 fps
1 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1110 fps
1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. - 1165 fps
1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1220 fps
1 1/8 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1185 fps
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. - 1240 fps

20 gauge 2 3/4”
3/4 oz. 2 Dr. Eq. - 1145 fps
3/4 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1200 fps
7/8 oz. 2 1/4 Dr. Eq. - 1155 fps
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. - 1210 fps
1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. - 1165 fps
1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. - 1220 fps

This is the Clever page and you may be able to e mail them with the question
http://www.clevervr.com/en/hunting-loads/t3-gauge-20

They have a right case without the concave base and all things considered that would help lower the psi

I sent them an e mail last week or so and it was received. IF they give me any info I'll pass it along. I have been trying to contact Tom Armbrust as well but haven't had any luck.