DROP IN VALUE FOR OPENED CHOKES
 

I know cut barrels are a killer but what percentage would you knock off for opened chokes. Looked at a VH 16 on a 0 frame but the chokes were cylinder (.001) and I.C. (.006). Barrel length is correct from the book. I do not suspect they left the factory this way since the wall thickness on the right was .020 all the way.

Also, the bores were .676 all the way in both barrels, which I thought was quite large for a 16. Opinions welcomed.

Get a letter even if you don't buy it. I was looking at a grade 2 Hammergun that had cyl and I'm choked but original length barrels. Letter stated it was ordered that way. Proved to be a good purchase after all. Jim

I intend to do that if Chuck is not so busy and the info is available. I only have a 24 hour window to purchase, but it would have been an ideal bird gun so I'm hoping it was ordered that way. If not, it needs a discount. Not 50% as cut barrels would in my opinion, but how much is the question.

20-25% IMHO only because to resell, you want to try to break even

I'd be more concerned about the .676" bore diameter. Normal is .662-.665". Considerable honing there. Value reduction in my opinion is significant, especially with the thin .020" WT.
Bob Jurewicz

Unless a letter says otherwise or the work was done poorly, who says they are opened?

I personally believe that opened chokes dont effect value all that much.

The bores are a perfect .676 in both barrels with no choke in the right and the left has choke for four inches. The overbore and cylinder in the right have me concerned.

I just measured 2 Parker VH 16 GA O Frames.
.662/.664"
.664/.665"
The other thing about the Cylinder choking is that all guns I have had that lettered as with a Cyl choked barrel showed around .006" of constriction in that barrel.
Bob Jurewicz

Perhaps you were not entirely accurate in this statement? "All the way" from where to where? If the walls measure .020 within the first 18 inches from the breech, you should be VERY concerned. Beyond that point, you might get away with it. Maybe.

An O frame 16 VH would be a perfect upland bird gun in cyl/IC. I have 2 parkers with factory letters chokes ordered at cyl/mod. Are you wanting the gun to hunt with?

I was referring to "all the way" in the typical 3 to 4 inches of choke area at the muzzle. The left barrel which had some choke remaining (.006) measured about .030 in the typical choke area. The .676 bore diameter tells me they have been honed.

Again, as I said "I do not suspect they left the factory this way."

I have a really nice GH 16, O frame. It has no choke in the right barrel. The letter confirms it was ordered that way. My thanks to the original owner from the late 19th C.!! Nice to find them as ordered...the way you want them.

I think it depends on the gun. If the chokes were opened on the gun you describe I wouldn't be as concerned as say a 32 inch target gun that was F/F is now opened to something else. With the gun you describe I'd be much more concerned with the bore diameter. There are plenty of VH/VHE 16's available and the O frame isn't always lighter than a #1 frame.

0 Frame 16 GA guns should be 6-8 oz lighter than 1 Frame guns. That has been my experience.
I have 1's and 0's sitting side by side in the safe and the O's look noticeably smaller.
Bob Jurewicz

The slim frame of my GH is what attracted me to it. It was sitting amid several other 16s and was noticeably smaller. It is just under the 6lbs. 8oz. weight you mention (6 lbs. 4 oz.). I like my shotguns light...at least when I'm following bird dogs.

Bob I have an 0 frame 16 that is considerably heavier than a couple of 1 frame 16's.

The 0 frames are, by definition, smaller than the 1 frames. Undisputed. The guns they are on are not, however, always lighter than their 1 frame counterparts. Barrel weight and stock variance play a role too.

Agreed, but when you can find a 0 frame that is lightweight, it's a jewell. A nicely balanced 16 gauge is a delight no matter it's grade or frame size. If you can point it "right," it will take wild quail like nobody's business...and is great to look at between coveys.

If I had a nice Parker 20 or 28 gauge with 26" barrels and F/F chokes that was pretty useless to me for grouse and woodcock in tight cover and spreader loads only gave me the equivalent of Mod/Mod at best, and I chose to open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet or Skeet/LtMod would I be devaluing the gun or making it more of my value for my purposes? Granted, a letter would show F/F but it isn't a 90% gun in anyone's definition anyway.





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And the funny thing is that if we had a factory record that the gun had been returned to have the chokes opened in the past, we would value the gun highly. There's great irony in collecting. Things evolve. We've all seen the rise in value of Damascus barrels, and now I see restored/reconditioned guns by certain gunsmiths are being valued well. The guns are gems, and we value what they hold for us as our link to the past.

To a purist it would probably devalue the gun but to the majority of people that would use the gun it would probably be considered beneficial. It would definitely make the gun more useable for you and your applications for it and it's YOUR gun so enjoy it the way you want it.

I believe the reason we would value it much more if the gun had been returned to Parker to have the chokes opened is that we would know it was done correctly, just as it would have if it left the factory. We can't be sure of all of the thousands of guns that were opened by other gunsmiths, many not as careful as Parker would have been with their very long choking system that we see in their barrels. The gun I was looking at, having been honed from .662 to .676 in 16 gauge was worrisome to me. Obviously not done by Parker. The .007 removed from the barrels only left .020 m.w.t. on the right barrel/cylinder side, which by the way is the choke with which it left the Parker factory.

I don't disagree with any of this sentiment, it's just that I still think that if you sent your tightly choked Parker to a reputable choke expert today (you pick, Briley? whoever), and documented it well, it would not be as valued by as many as it would (as you well note, Jerry) if it had been done in the past (and documented) by Parker. Let's face it, it's significantly the mystic of Parker that we care about...and/or the nostalgia for a time past...or whatever you believe motivates people to collect and value things. The idea that a documented change of originality by a reputable source in the past makes a gun functionally different from one done just as well by a reputable source is interesting so say the least.

A great thread!

Garry, One of the true values of The Parker Gun is the wonderful ogee choke found in factory original guns. I just develop loads that shoot well in my Parkers rather than opening those great chokes up. Besides shooting a full choked gun just makes you a better shot.

I agree completely Dave but just what are ogee chokes?:rotf::rotf::rotf:

I'm absolutely not advocating opening the chokes in an original Parker (but if someone owns the gun, who am I to say?), or disputing the very effective chokes that Parker bored for loads of the day. My comments are more about how we regard the guns and our concept of originality. IF Parker Bros. were still in business today, I wonder if their guns would be choked as tightly as they were "back then?" I think part of the interest in collecting and shooting these great guns is developing loads to make them shoot their best. Dave, your expertise in creating loads is a testament to your regard for the guns.

Post some of your best loads for tightly choked (original) Parkers -- especially in 16 gauge -- and I'll give them a try. I must tell you, though, I seriously doubt that it will make ME a better shot...but it's worth a try. My bird dogs will thank you if it works.;-)

Rich, If I can find Austins profile graph of Parker chokes I will post it here.

Garry, Try this one for your tight choked 16 gauge. Remington game load hull, 16.5 grains SR 7625 (soon to change to Unique), Winchester 209 primer,Claybuster CBO16 gauge wad(blue) 1oz. shot and a Polywad 20 gauge spreader insert on top of the shot. Yes I did say 20 spreader insert. Hope this is of some help. The thing I discovered about making speaders is that speed is very important. If they are too fast the pattern will be terrible.

Thanks so much! I think I have all of the components but the wads, so I'll get some. Any idea what the pressure range for this load is? Would it be suitable for a Damascus-barreled Parker?

Rich, I have a LOT of Austin's charts and graphs that he plotted on chambers, cone tapers, bore measurements, and chokes - which Austin determined to be 'ogee' in shape.

"A double curve with the shape of an elongated S."

"Shaped somewhat like an S, consisting of two arcs that curve in opposite senses, so that the ends are parallel. It is a kind of sigmoid curve."

An 'ogee' choke profile is unlike the chokes cut by most other shotgun makers in that theirs is a 'cone' with a definite shoulder at the end of a straight walled tube and without the terminal 1/4" - 3/8" parallel walled section at the very muzzle that Parker chokes usually had.

Is that clear?.....I tried to be.






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Here ya go Rich,

Garry, Right around 8000 psi. It very hard to get pressures much lower than that and get a complete burn. Remember the smaller the bore the higher the pressure. This load I gave you is a joy to shoot.

Dave,

Many thanks! I've order the wads and will give this load a try. I appreciate your time in helping me.

Gary I shoot a similar load in my 16's both fluid steel and Damascus with no problem. SR 7625 has been discontinued but if it changes to Unique be sure to work up gradually as the two powders might have different burn rates.

Dave & Dean thanks for the choke info. In all honesty I was just giving Dave a hard time because I thought he was having a senior moment with his grammar:) It's good to learn something new thanks:bowdown:

Rich,

Thanks! I have some SR 7625, so I'm good for the near future. I don't quite understand the comment "if it changes to Unique." Sorry to be slow-witted (I know I am, my wife tells me all the time!). Are you saying that I might substitute Unique for the 7625, or is the manufacturer suggesting this...or whoever developed the load is suggesting it? I don't have the capability to monitor pressures, so I'm a bit confused about this.

In Dave's post he mentioned using SR7625 but that it was changing to Unique as 7625 has been discontinued. When substituting powders even though one supposedly replaces another it's best to work up gradually.

Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying.

Interesting comments on powder burn rates:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm

Why Powder Burn Rate Is Meaningless By Randy Wakeman

Perhaps you have looked at various "Burn Rate Charts" and wondered what good they are. Well, you have good reason to wonder. Burn rate charts seldom agree. There is no specific meaning for "burn rate," so it shouldn't surprise us that the numbers don't agree. They mean nothing by themselves.

What amateurs call burn rate is not used by professional ballisticians to develop loads. The actual term closest to burn rate used in interior ballistics is "Relative Quickness."

Relative quickness is defined by "closed bomb tests," which quantify pressure rise in a sealed container. However, professional ballisticians do not use relative quickness for load development, either. A closed bomb relative quickness value does not translate into any type of value outside of that 'closed bomb' test. Powder performance varies widely by actual application. Relative quickness is one of several preliminary considerations when assessing a powder's suitability for a particular application by ballistics, but nothing more than that.

Relative quickness does not tell use the physical shape of a powder, its composition, or the types of coatings. It cannot tell us whether a powder is single-based, double based, or triple based. It does not tell us the heat of explosion, the progressive / degressive gas creation values, the ignition characteristics, and so forth. There is no way to translate a double-based powder performance into a single-based powder performance level with any accuracy. Even further, relative quickness does not define the erosiveness of a powder, the residue left by a powder, its ability to meter properly; and on it goes.

Energy content of nitrocellulose varies by manufacturer. It varies by the amount of nitrogen in the nitrocellulose. The more nitrogen, the more gas a powder can make. Once you have a specific type of nitrocellulose the energy content is further controlled by the addition of nitroglycerin, which is basically what constitutes a double-based powder. Now you have further considerations, as nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin do not behave the same way as temperature changes. The amount of nitro percentage varies by powder to powder, and with it its performance in a specific application.

All this combines to make burn rate charts something to ignore, or to view with very little importance placed on them. Professional ballisticians do not use them at all, simply because they have no particular meaning. Ping-Pong balls are nitrocellulose, but not many of us would bother cutting them up and attempting to use them in a firearm.

The "go ahead and open the chokes, it's your gun", versus the "keep it original" argument is surely a never-ending debate. But, I enjoy following it wherever it leads. The battle lines may be irreconcilable, but that does not prevent me from learning something new each time the topic is brought up.

This may stir things further: Spreader loads can compensate for all the older, tightly-choked Parker guns, but, admittedly only minimally -- given that the shot charge of a modified-equivalent may not be open enough for the grouse woods. But, once you open the chokes, is there any going back? Do you shift to "constrictor" loads, after opening up your factory-choked gun, if later in life you get a chance to hunt the broad expanses of the American West for upland game where longer shots are the norm?

REC

That's an intriguing concept - "constrictor" loads. Is there such a load available, or a 'component' that will allow us to load our own?





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This is an easy one...get another gun!! (And now you have another good excuse).