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-   -   3 inch chambered 12 gauge (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20919)

Forrest Grilley 02-24-2017 10:20 PM

3 inch chambered 12 gauge
 
How common (if at all) were later Parker 12 gauge shotguns chambered in 3 inch? The Remington (and earlier) guns would have been produced well after the introduction of the 3" cartridge, but I don't recall seeing Parkers chambered for that shell. I've been in the search for a vintage 3" gun, and have been mainly focused on English guns, but I thought I should see if it would be worth spending the time looking for a Parker as well.

Are they as rare as hen's teeth, or were they commonly made in the 1920's-30's?

Dean Romig 02-24-2017 11:08 PM

They are far from common. Look for a Parker with 2 7/8" chambers for the 3" shell.






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Dave Noreen 02-25-2017 12:38 AM

Three-inch, and even longer, 12-gauge shells have been around here in North America just about as long as cartridge shotguns. Quite a few Parker Bros. doubles for Pigeon shooters and other gun cranks were ordered chambered for longer shells in the thirty some years before the progressive burning powder 12-gauge Super-X type load with 4 drams equiv. pushing 1 3/8 ounce of shot came out in the mid-1920s. These earlier long shells didn't come from our ammunition factories with loads any heavier then could be had in the 2 3/4 inch shell. They had more/better wadding which many serious shooters believed to be an advantage. Many of these earlier guns ordered for longer shells were often made on heavier frames. From what I've seen the few 12-gauges built in the late 1920s and 1930s for the 3-inch progressive burning powder shells were made on the 1 1/2 frame, but have a bit different exterior barrel profile for the longer chambers. The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell with the 4 1/4 dram equiv. pushing 1 5/8 ounces of shot was introduced by the Olins in their Western Super-X and Winchester Super-Speed shells in 1935 along with their Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck.

Here is what Parker Bros. had to say a few years after the A.H. Fox Gun Co. introduced their HE-Grade Super-Fox and Hunter Arms Co. added their "Long Range" --

Parker Long Range -- In the 1929 "Flying Geese" catalogue the Brothers P had this to say -- "Magnum, Super, and variously named guns about which so much is now being written are not a new development in the gun makers' art.

For the past twenty years Parker Brothers have made guns to handle heavy charges of powder and shot, giving good patterns at long range. Recent improvements in powder and by shell manufacturers have served to make the Parker Long Range gun even more effective, so that today the Parker built and bored to secure the full power of modern loads with which one may confidently expect to bring down game at distances a few years ago considered impossible, is up to date but not new.

Parker Long Range guns are built to guard the user against abnormal recoil. The weight of the barrels is so distributed that the gun handles the heaviest loads with comfort. The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured that he will receive a gun, easy to handle, sufficiently heavy and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wild fowl at extreme ranges."

The 1937 Remington era catalogue adds -- "Ordinarily Parker 12 gauge guns are chambered for shells up to and including 2 3/4 inches. These guns can be furnished with special long range choke boring to give more effective results at extreme ranges. 12 gauge double barrel guns, with the exception of the "Trojan" are also available with 3 inch chambers for use with maximum long range heavy loaded shells. So chambered, Parker guns are guaranteed to handle these shells properly."

"Parker 10 gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 7/8 inch loads, but are also available with 3 1/2 inch chambers for use with maximum loads. No extra charge for a Parker Long Range Gun. Guns should never be used with shells longer than those for which they are chambered. See table of complete specifications on page 34."

Craig Larter 02-25-2017 06:12 AM

I own a 12ga Parker from 1917, damascus, that is factory chambered 2 7/8", is overbored with full chokes and was patterned for #1 shot on a #3 frame. The gun was sent to North Dakota so I assume it was a specialized waterfowl gun. This gun was not designed to shoot 1 3/8oz loads, it was made during the era when more wading was thought to improve patterns as Researcher stated above. Even though it is on a #3 frame it only weights 8-4. I wrote an article about this gun in a recent edition of PP.

Forrest Grilley 02-25-2017 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen (Post 212721)
From what I've seen the few 12-gauges built in the late 1920s and 1930s for the 3-inch progressive burning powder shells were made on the 1 1/2 frame, but have a bit different exterior barrel profile for the longer chambers. The 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell with the 4 1/4 dram equiv. pushing 1 5/8 ounces of shot was introduced by the Olins in their Western Super-X and Winchester Super-Speed shells in 1935 along with their Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck.

Thank you, that is very good information. That seems to be inline with the British gun I own, and the ones I've been looking at. In British proofing they also had two 3 inch designations. The 3", 3 1/2 ton, 1 1/2 oz service proof would seem to very close to what the Parker 1 1/2 frame guns were designed for.


The later 3", 4 ton, 1 5/8 oz service proof would be what we would call the modern "Magnum" 3 inch cartridge.

I've developed a very effective, low pressure bismuth load for my British 3", 3 1/2 ton gun, and am searching for another gun to use with the same load. I would love to add a Parker with original 3 inch chambers. It sounds like it might be a long search though.

So here's another question, did later Parkers get marked with their chamber lengths on the barrels? The Parkers I've owned are earlier guns (1880's) and none are marked as to chamber length. I would be concerned with finding a Parker with "original" 3 inch chambers, instead of one that a gunsmith had worked on.

Is there a way to identify them without an order book lookup?

Dean Romig 02-25-2017 08:19 AM

Generally, an original chamber will have been cut at a very modest taper over it's entire length, rim recess to the beginning of the forcing cone, by as much as .003"

If a chamber was lengthened it is very unlikely that this profile will have been continued through the additional cut length of as much as 1/2"...... but it would be extremely difficult to detect a taper in just a half inch, even if it had a taper.





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Bill Murphy 02-25-2017 09:15 AM

Parkers are not factory marked with chamber length until the Remington era. Measure the chambers, then buy the gun for its heavy weight, over 8 pounds. Then get a PGCA letter that confirms that it was originally made with 2 7/8" chambers. The Remington era 3" guns, marked as such, are normally made on # 1 1/2 frames, not my choice for a 3" gun to shoot. However, they are quite scarce and collectable.

charlie cleveland 02-25-2017 12:52 PM

i sure do like to read about these long chambered gun especially those shooting modern guns i have two guns chambered for the modern 3 inch a lc smith 12 ga and a heavy ithaca chambered 2 7/8 inch..i ve duck hunted with the lc smith shooting steel shot in 3 inch with modified barrels in both barrels and no problems...i have a parker 12 ga 3 frame size that i m thinking about have it chambered to 3 inch the barrels on it weigh 5 lbs 9ounce..my dream gun would be a modern parker 3 inch 12 ga and a modern parker in 3 1/2 inch chambers.....charlie

Bill Murphy 02-25-2017 01:04 PM

Charlie, are you sure the Parker #3 frame doesn't already have long chambers? Any #3 frame is worth a PGCA letter.

Pete Lester 02-25-2017 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen (Post 212721)



The 1937 Remington era catalogue adds -- "Ordinarily Parker 12 gauge guns are chambered for shells up to and including 2 3/4 inches. These guns can be furnished with special long range choke boring to give more effective results at extreme ranges. 12 gauge double barrel guns, with the exception of the "Trojan" are also available with 3 inch chambers for use with maximum long range heavy loaded shells. So chambered, Parker guns are guaranteed to handle these shells properly."

"Parker 10 gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 7/8 inch loads, but are also available with 3 1/2 inch chambers for use with maximum loads. No extra charge for a Parker Long Range Gun. Guns should never be used with shells longer than those for which they are chambered. See table of complete specifications on page 34."


So in 1937 Parker said not to use 2 3/4" shells in 2 5/8" chambers............

Bill Murphy 02-25-2017 04:14 PM

"For which they were chambered" means 2 5/8" chambers for 2 3/4" shells or 2 7/8" chambers for 3" shells. The statement you refer to is not meant to be a warning because Remington literature clarifies the length of chambers to be shorter than the shell by 1/8".

charlie cleveland 02-25-2017 04:38 PM

bill i do need to get a letter on the 3 frame would tickle me good if it had 3 inch chambers.charlie

charlie cleveland 02-25-2017 07:07 PM

i just measured the chambers of the ph 3 frame 42 ga they are 2 7/8 inch...i shot it with a no 6 and no 5 shot in 3 inch at a coke can at 50 steps no 6 put 5 shot in can and no 5 put 6 shot in the can it will not make a good turkey gun but will be fine on the wood ducks next fall...charlie

Mark Conrad 02-27-2017 03:44 PM

The early guns with 2 7/8 inch chambers were not intended for the latter 3 inch magnum shells. Remington offered a 12 gauge designed for the true 12 ga. Mag. shell. I have seen 4 -6 of these guns over the years with one being a CHE that I almost bought. I had a late AHE and a late VHE that were both fitted with a second set of 3 inch barrels. The 3 inch barrels made in the Remington era were very heavy and there was no swamp in the barrels in front of the chambers. They were also marked on the lug "For 3" shells". These Remington 12 ga. 3 inch guns are rare, probably less than 15 made.

charlie cleveland 02-27-2017 04:38 PM

my barrels weigh 5 lb 10 ounces on a three frame with twist steel barrel i know they say not to shoot heavy loads like 3 inch in these type of barrels...but i have been shooting heavy loads in several guns for 50 years or better with no problems...i wish i could find one of those remington 3 inch guns...i shoot a lc smith long range gun with 3 inch chambers a lot..i have looed at the 3 inch chambers and compare them to my 2 3/4 inch guns and can see no differance in the barrels or frames except one is marked 3 inch...i wonder if this is what parker and remingto done to there gun just lentghened the chambers 1 /4 of a inch..charlie

Bill Murphy 02-27-2017 06:13 PM

We need to examine one of those Remington guns that Mark describes. They are 1 1/2 frame, so the barrel weight marking would tell the tale. I looked at one 3" VHE before Mark bought it and I didn't think it was that heavy. Mark, do you still have a set of those barrels so you can share the weight marking with us?

Mark Conrad 02-27-2017 07:44 PM

I sold both the AHE and the VHE. THE VHE barrels were very heavy and I didn't like the balance of the gun. I shot a few ducks with it using heavy loads and it did fine. It was actually a skeet gun that had the 3 inch barrels fitted latter and were numbered 2 on the barrel lug. Bill, you know where it bought it. I do not remember the barrel weight but the gun was a little over 8 pounds. Anyway, they are rare.

Dave Noreen 02-28-2017 11:00 AM

The one I handled was the CHE at Randy Shuman's, probably 35 years ago now.

Bill Murphy 02-28-2017 01:08 PM

Mark, you described the bad balance on the VHE. I would own that gun now if it felt good in the hands, but it did not.

George M. Purtill 02-28-2017 06:15 PM

The Remington 3 inch guns would be the only ones I would trust.i have seen this gun and so has Dean. Straight grip VHE with original SSBP. Fantastic wood like an Ilion Parker.

1-1/2 frame
30 inch barrels
4 pound unstruck

Dean Romig 02-28-2017 06:54 PM

2 Attachment(s)
George's 3-inch 241231



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Michael Bartlett 04-21-2017 07:27 PM

For those interested in 3 in chambered 12 ga. Parkers for use in the field, i.e. Turkey and Waterfowl, they can be produced from low-grade, 2-frame 12 Parkers. Presently, we have Ten (10) 2-frame 12 VH & Trojans with 30 in barrels that have had the chambers lengthened to 3 in and forcing cones appropriately tapered. And, all passed proof-testing with 3 in magnum proof shells--18,000+ pressure loads. Vulcan steel and Trojan Steel barrels from serial numbers 91,6xx to 228,1xx passed the proofing; all 10, 2-frame with barrels with weights from 4-1 to 4-4; no ring-bulges. Master Gunsmith Ed Lander, NH, measured the wall thickness first prior to chamber lengthening and proofing. These guns were not designed to be 3-in, as the Delgrego's point out, since original 3-in barrels have more steel and little to no taper/swamping at the breech. However, the steel in V-Grade and Trojan grade guns is very hard and strong. Larry, Jr has found that it takes 4 hours to polish V and Trojan barrels and only 2 hours for Peerless prior to re-bluing; very hard steel. Obviously, the steel is different--which is a big contention in Parker discussions. However, the proof is in the proof-testing. Installing a 4 in Edwards mercury reducer and fitting with a good recoil pad brings the weight of these guns to 8 1/2 pounds and they still balance slightly back of the hinge pin. I have been using a steel barreled P-grade 3 in 12 as well as two sleeved/mono-blocked by LeFever Mag 10 Parkers for years turkey and waterfowl hunting. So, for those interested in an unavailable 3-in 12 Parker original, if you can procure proof-loads, one can be had. Note: Ed just used his last 3 in proof shells on an original 2-frame Trojan 12 that was sent to Remington in 1953 for reconditioning-barrels re-blued, re-cased and stock refinished; barrel flats marked RRR-3, No. 2281xx.

Pete Lester 04-21-2017 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Bartlett (Post 216881)
For those interested in 3 in chambered 12 ga. Parkers for use in the field, i.e. Turkey and Waterfowl, they can be produced from low-grade, 2-frame 12 Parkers. Presently, we have Ten (10) 2-frame 12 VH & Trojans with 30 in barrels that have had the chambers lengthened to 3 in and forcing cones appropriately tapered. And, all passed proof-testing with 3 in magnum proof shells--18,000+ pressure loads. Vulcan steel and Trojan Steel barrels from serial numbers 91,6xx to 228,1xx passed the proofing; all 10, 2-frame with barrels with weights from 4-1 to 4-4; no ring-bulges. Master Gunsmith Ed Lander, NH, measured the wall thickness first prior to chamber lengthening and proofing. These guns were not designed to be 3-in, as the Delgrego's point out, since original 3-in barrels have more steel and little to no taper/swamping at the breech. However, the steel in V-Grade and Trojan grade guns is very hard and strong. Larry, Jr has found that it takes 4 hours to polish V and Trojan barrels and only 2 hours for Peerless prior to re-bluing; very hard steel. Obviously, the steel is different--which is a big contention in Parker discussions. However, the proof is in the proof-testing. Installing a 4 in Edwards mercury reducer and fitting with a good recoil pad brings the weight of these guns to 8 1/2 pounds and they still balance slightly back of the hinge pin. I have been using a steel barreled P-grade 3 in 12 as well as two sleeved/mono-blocked by LeFever Mag 10 Parkers for years turkey and waterfowl hunting. So, for those interested in an unavailable 3-in 12 Parker original, if you can procure proof-loads, one can be had. Note: Ed just used his last 3 in proof shells on an original 2-frame Trojan 12 that was sent to Remington in 1953 for reconditioning-barrels re-blued, re-cased and stock refinished; barrel flats marked RRR-3, No. 2281xx.

To each there own, they are your guns to do with as you please, as far as I am concerned all that was accomplished is the ruination of some V's and Trojans.

Bill Murphy 04-22-2017 10:12 AM

The Lefever monobloc ten gauges are wonderful guns. I own one in DH grade.

charlie cleveland 04-23-2017 09:44 AM

i hope some day that i might come across one of these 10 ga magnums in a parker....i have shot several of the old spanish doubles 10 s but they are some what on the bulkie side..bill does your 10 ga handle well....charlie

Drew Hause 04-23-2017 10:22 AM

Mike: who is the 'we' that has 10 chamber lengthened 12s?

Is this the Master Gunsmith Ed Lander of which you speak?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../335164289.jpg

charlie cleveland 04-24-2017 01:25 PM

does anyone here use their 3 inch gun on turkeys or water fowl...what was the averageweight of a parker 3 inch gun....looks like they would have a 3 inch gun made on a 3 frame size instead of a 1 1/2 frame...these are very interesting guns to me....charlie

Eric Eis 04-24-2017 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew Hause (Post 216935)
Mike: who is the 'we' that has 10 chamber lengthened 12s?

Is this the Master Gunsmith Ed Lander of which you speak?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../335164289.jpg

Could Mike be good old boy Ed Good the "torch" :shock: :rolleyes:

George M. Purtill 04-24-2017 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie cleveland (Post 216980)
does anyone here use their 3 inch gun on turkeys or water fowl...what was the averageweight of a parker 3 inch gun....looks like they would have a 3 inch gun made on a 3 frame size instead of a 1 1/2 frame...these are very interesting guns to me....charlie

Charlie
My factory original 3 inch Remington era Parker is on a 1 1/2 frame as shown in the pictures above that Dean posted. Also my Parker Reproduction Steel Shot Special which has 3 inch chambers is also on a 1 1/2 frame.

Brian Dudley 04-25-2017 04:20 PM

"Master"? Is there an apprenticeship program or guild in this country that bestows that title?

henderson Marriott 03-02-2022 07:06 PM

Interesting. In separate publications both Parker Bros. and AH Fox
state that complete or better progressive powder burning is achieved
by using shells that are slightly longer than the actual chambers.

In actual usage, many 2 3/4 shells are fired in 2 5/8 " chambers. I would not
attempt that in damascus barrels, however.

Dave Noreen 03-02-2022 07:54 PM

Since this thread was running back in 2017, two different late Remington CHE 12-gauge, 3-inch guns have been on the market -- 241442 with 32-inch barrels on a 2-frame with an unstruck barrel weight of 47 and 241838 with 32-inch vent rib barrels on a 1 1/2 frame with an unstruck barrel weight of 413.

ED J, MORGAN 03-02-2022 09:47 PM

Measure your un fired 2 3/4 " shells . They are less length. so are ok for 2 5/8 chambers in 12 ga.

Bill Murphy 03-03-2022 07:13 AM

Charlie, my Lefever sleeved mag ten handles as well as can be expected. It was originally a twelve that lettered as a ten pound three frame.

charlie cleveland 03-03-2022 11:32 AM

bill this is a 3 1/2 inch gun is it....whats the chokes on this gun...wish I lived closer to you to take a look at this gun of yours....have you ever hunted ducks with this gun... my 3 frame 12 weighs around 10 LBS its unstruck barrel weight is 5 10 it has 3 inch chambers but not marked as such...my gun is choked modified and full and it is a twist steel barrel..i ve used in in duck hunting a few times went one hunting up in missori one time killed one goose with it and some ducks....these 3 frame guns are neat...but even with the weight they have a 3 inch shell still kicks pretty good..... charlie

Randy G Roberts 03-03-2022 02:03 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Charlie my 3 frame DH 12 gauge has 34" Damascus barrels with an unstruck weight of 6 lbs 8 oz. If memory serves me right the barrels finished weight was either 5-8 or 5-9. Special instructions were to chamber 2 7/8, and to shoot #4 or #5 shot. No distance, no pellet count, just that info.

charlie cleveland 03-03-2022 03:11 PM

boy that 3 frame has some heavy barrels...it has the most heavest barrels on a 3 frame 12 ga I ve heard of...I really like these guns with long barrels heavy weights...must have been a water fowler that ordered your gun...what chokes do you have in this gun....I never tire of talking about these big guns...charlie

Randy G Roberts 03-03-2022 03:24 PM

Chokes are tight at .036 and .039. I shot wobble trap with it Tuesday night and can definitely say it is capable of absolutely crushing targets with 1 oz of #8's. Shot 1 round where we only had 3 shooters and the darn thing was starting to get a little heavy. Ordered with a requested weight of 10 to 10 1/2 pounds and holding tight today at 1 oz under the 10 lb mark.

charlie cleveland 03-03-2022 09:53 PM

yes sir that gun of yours was built to shoot long range and with heavy loads...charlie

Stan Hillis 03-03-2022 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ED J, MORGAN (Post 357354)
Measure your un fired 2 3/4 " shells . They are less length. so are ok for 2 5/8 chambers in 12 ga.

The length of unfired shells is not what is important in the discussion of how long a shell was meant to be used in a chamber. It is the fired length that matters. When the crimp unfolds, if it goes too far into the forcing cone, it becomes a restriction to the forward progress of the payload, and tears at the case mouth. Pressures rise significantly when that occurs.

That said, most 2 3/4" shells I have measured don't even measure a full 2 3/4" when fired, which is what actually matters. They don't protrude far enough into the forcing cones to be a problem. Each person should measure for themselves to determine this, on the load they are interested in using. Just because most of them are short enough doesn't mean all of them are.


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