I don't want to be an alarmist, but....
 

It seems that Parkers are selling more cheaply these days, from what I see on the Internet auction sites. What do you suppose is the cause of this?

My take is that people are more willing to accept less for some pretty nice guns and I have wondered about the reason for this.... and what I think is the reason is that these sellers (at drastically reduced values) actually NEED to sell these really nice Parkers and consequently accept lower prices. But I don't expect this trend to last. I think we are looking at a new America - a more prosperous America where people no longer need to sell off their nice guns as a way of "making ends meet."

What are your thoughts?





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I think it's less demand. Younger folks aren't interested in our kind of guns. As the market shrinks, average quality guns are no longer in demand, so prices soften. Presently, the market for high quality examples will remain good, but down the road.....

A friend of mine who is a major buyer/seller/collector of WW II militaria is seeing the same thing

Dean, I think this is a very timely topic. Without bleeding on this forum, I must say that the years between 2007 and today have been for me a lost decade.
Business and real estate losses, loss of my son to an auto accident in 2009, 180,000 pages of new regulations added to the books in the past 8 years, virtually guaranteeing an older, small business type like me will NEVER, be able to pick up the pieces. Working for other people for the past 6 to 7 years at a break-even existence. Yes, some very nice guns left my modest collection.
All that said, I have renewed faith in my country, and a God that allowed me to be born here. It will get better.

I recently bought an exceptionally nice Parker for a fraction of what I considered to be its actual value. I am not, nor have I ever been, a "bottom feeder" but I was the high bidder and would have even bid more, but....






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Todd, I am truly sorry for your losses, especially that of your son.




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I believe it has more to do with the aging of sportsman with fewer and fewer youngsters coming into the sport and those do have more interest in more modern firearms. Having a small antique business I see less and less interest in "old stuff". What were highly sought collectibles a few years ago don't move anymore or people have no idea what it is. Ask someone under 40 who Howdy Doody is, or even Hopalong Cassidy, and watch for the blank stares. American firearm trends have always been bigger, faster, more powerful and thats what the new sportsman looks for. Your told you can't kill a duck unless you Have the latest 3 1/2" super duper magnum and a "6 ounce load of the latest technology shot at unbelievable speed". When you read the posts here most water fowl are shot with 7/8 to 1 1/4 oz. loads at what would be considered ridiculously slow speeds by today's standards, and yet they work and work well. Outside of the "true collector's" and collector quality firearms, or Sportsmen in the"know" I don't believe prices will escalate the way they have in past years unless we can pass on our ways to a younger generation. We are Dinosaurs and fading fast, hopefully some will discover our footprints.

George has it correct. Kids today are not interested in buying what they consider to be 'antique' the way their parents and grandparents did. They want new and flashy.

I just turned 49. I have always carried an appreciation for SxS vintage guns and I enjoy shooting them for hunting and sporting. I have a modern shotgun (Beretta autoloader) but I have not shot it for about 6 years, although I probably shoot it better than some of my older shoguns. I also have a Browning O/U used for sporting clays and that too has collected a lot of dust in the last few years. There is something about the old time craftsmanship and the artists who created those beautiful examples of functional work of art that is seldom duplicated nowadays, (or it is beyond my affordability when created today). I would not be able to afford any of my turn-of-the century guns if they were to be produced today the same way as then, handmade, with lots of labor intensive hours by expert workers at today's market prices. Heck, I would not be able to afford the piece of walnut wood or the engraving work on it.
For me, the vintage gun represent an example of amazing work of art, aesthetics, and quality that I can both admire and use at the same time. Those old guns have soul!!! Alas, a lot of shooting folks I know do not share the same admiration and views as I do. BillK

Sounds like an echo in here. I think that is the heart of it, the age of those interested.
I know of 1 young man under 30 that has a passion for Parkers. I'd bet a bunch of us that are between 50 and 70 have seen our incomes as stagnant the last 10 years. Myself I don't have someone that wants them when I am gone and that plays a part also.

My recent purchase from GB tells me the bottom feeders are not paying up for guns like they were. My guess is that they have more then enough of the good deal Parkers sitting around. and that the demand has weakened enough so they must sell at a loss to move them along. I'm not sure we will ever recover from this as our youth seem more interested in cheap, ugly, plastic. My oldest son just informed me that the woodwork in his new house is old fashioned, stained and varnished, and needs to be updated to white trim.

I think it really requires a certain level of maturity to develop a passion for Parkers.
Most are not there yet, at 30 years of age.

This is an interesting topic, The "aging out" of folks that appreciate quality doubles has something to do with it, I myself have a few guns consigned, just because I needed to make room for new acquisitions, I have a certain price that I will sell at and no less, else I will keep them for a few more years God willing, There comes a time when you go into that gun room and stop and realize that most of what you see is not being used, or have been shown at many shows, and it is time to move on. In my case just rare and high grade guns from now on. I have to wear blinders like the old mule, concentrate on what to collect or the collection ends up just a lot of guns. Some of our group are in their late seventies or early eighties, and just want to be rid of them so they are not tied up in an estate. We need to come up with an idea, that will attract younger folks and keep them in the fold, this is needed by all the groups Smith ,Lefever,Fox etc. I have an idea and will put it out at a later date. If we are to survive, we must do like businesses do, start readying the next generation, Gary

I think it goes hand in hand with the declining popularity of hunting. I'm 30, I started upland hunting in 2011 when my cousin invited me to go out with him and his English setter.. In 2012 I bought my first double gun, a Ruger red label.. 2013 bought my first dog an English setter.. 2016 first Parker. I think that if you fall in love with upland hunting eventually the road leads to Parkers. But one thing that I have noticed as someone who really hasn't hunted that many years, is that every year I run into less and less people. When I do they tend to be in their 60's or 70's.

Loss of the working middle class!!!!! Big culprit. I will say we are in a soft marker for all firearms unless they are special.... in demand and hard to find. If anyone finds a sleeper deal on a un-molested O-frame DHE-16....please let me know, I will up the bid...(-: I see the nuts and bolts gun selling under value or at a real good price these days, a buyer can pick and choose and wait till he finds the sweet spot. But guns like the one I mentioned are few and have more than several people who want it...maybe the only one available for some time.....good ones never sell ''cheap'' if properly marketed! that's my take...SXS Ohio

I don't want to be an alarmist either....
 

I don't want to be an alarmist either, and hope that Dean is correct in his prognosis that values will rise again.
I think we have a bigger problem looming. As we age we'll hit a point where suddenly we don't need another Parker or LC Smith, and if we haven't somehow garnered the interest of the next generation of vintage gun enthusiasts, then the value of our prized doubles will die of old age as we do.
When is the last time that Team Parker fielded a Junior Shooter at either the Spring or Fall Southern SXS shoots? Team Elsie usually has one or two, and that is nearly as pathetic as none, but my point is that if we don't do something to bring along the next generation.....we WILL be the end of the line as far as interest in our guns, and interest is what drives price. Even if the economic times get better, if there's no interest there is no sale. Our un-intersted grand-churrins will clean up at the Pawn Shop for Pennies on our well spent Dollars.
It's up to us.
John

This is getting depressing... but I agree with you John. I think we owe it to our hobby, to these great old guns, to the young folks who could really get a lot from collecting, shooting, and hunting with them, and to ourselves to try to get the kids off the couch, off their electronic games and out to the Skeet, trap, and SC ranges. Our future and the future of collecting will be in the hands of today's youth.





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I agree with the age issue as others have stated. Kids today are into guns so far away from a Parker sxs it is difficult to even hold a conversation on the subject. Next time you are at a well attended sxs shoot, stop and look around. Nothing but old duffers.

As for kids, I am more than a bit bewildered. I have coached a youth shotgun team for the last 15 years. Early on we had little difficulty getting kids to participate. Oh, we had to work at it but ultimately we found the kids we needed. Last year we barely fielded a qualifying squad and at the end of the season several opted out for this year and efforts at new recruits yielded nothing. I admit we are in a rural, low population area but it is in the middle of PA hunting country. The kids themselves are part of the problem but equally so are the parents. Many have given up hunting in favor of more social activities and are not encouraging the kids to participate. Over the years the most dedicated kids have been those whose parents also shot. We are just not seeing that anymore.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs.

Agreed, Dean. But is the PGCA planning to do anything about some of it? About a year ago there was some talk of a youth program. But I've heard nothing more for 12 months. Anybody have an update?

As others have said, the value of any classic gun is a combination of history, heritage, romance, nostalgia, tradition and taste. Without those aspects handed down to young people, tomorrow's market for any classic double gun will fade to oblivion.

Sorry if I sound pessimistic...

It is not only the vintage gun market that is soft. I have collected antique decoys for nearly 50 years and I can buy nice decoys for 30 to 40 percent less than 10 years ago. Same deal as vintage guns an aging collector population. Country antiques are even more depressed, I sold my parents life long collection of antique furniture and got 30 cents on the dollar that my parents spent on many nice pieces. In all these markets it seems only the very best continue to appreciate.
My son is much like many 30 year old men. He loves to hunt, just bought his first Lab but the difficult economy and college debt makes money tight and time off hard to come by in today's working world.
Times and tastes change but everything runs in cycles. After WWII side by side shotguns were out of favor for decades and could be purchased for a song, could be we are entering the bottom of a cycle again that will reverse at some time.

I wasn't trying to be depressing as much as maybe trying to hi-light an aspect of our hobby that hasn't/isn't getting as much exposure as it needs to for us to keep our guns in the game. I try to look at the situation as more of a Challenge than an Obituary!
For any of our children less than 8 years old, and more like less than 12 years old, all they've ever seen/heard/read about has been the heathen nature of our sport.
God willing and the Creek (Nation) don't rise, that will change with the current political environment, and if we do our do diligence we might be able to get our message out the he next batch of double gun care-takers before they all decide to become expert hand-ball players!
John

I think it is a money issue. Motorcycles are down as well.

Mr. Campbell,
A reply to your question of an update on the youth program. The message I received was that the board of directors stated that the PGCA is a "collectors" association NOT a shooting association. Therefore that was as far as the youth program went.

I think you will find that the baby boomers were the last of the collector generations. As they, and we, go to our final reward, the value of collectables will continue to decline. Unless it is a fantastic, one of a kind type item that may appeal to a new dot com type billionaire, the price is going down because the demand is going down. This is true particularly for collectables that appeal to a small group. Double guns, coins, antique oak furniture, early cars (pre muscle) and early americana all fall into this category. Appealing to the younger people isn't going to be effective as 1) they are not interested 2) even if they were interested most do not have the $$$ even for the reduced level of collectable Parker prices.

Well... this has certainly been uplifting.

Now all I have to do is die amidst my collection of fine guns.

Which my children can then sell to a scrap metal dealer, and order carry out pizza with the proceeds.

I need a drink...

All I know is I am going to continue to buy great guns and my son will have to figure it out when I go to the happy hunting grounds! This thread is getting a little depressing for me.

well- we antique a lot as a hobby- one thing I have commented on lately is seeing more young people at shows than in the past few years

that may not translate to Parkers - as hunting declines interest in any hunting gun will follow

Part of the distraction is black rifles. You can buy parts and components for them and build a very accurate rifle in some excellent calibers for under $400. 300 blk, 450 bushmaster, all fun to hunt with. Don't misunderstand, I love classic doubles and old levers. I have and enjoy both. However, building an accurate black rifle is fun to plink with and can be done on the cheap. IMHO

PS. I still hunt with a reproduction Sharps 45-90.

Maybe "guns" are just too controversial for the X-Gens and Millenials ?





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I believe everything runs in cycles. My first gun, bought for me by my father, was a Win. mod1400 semi auto. I hunted with that and an old Belgium Browning until I was 21 or 22. Then a friend of mine wanted to trade his VHE 20 for that Browning which I did. Shortly thereafter an older member of my gun club wanted to unload 2 more 20ga. Parkers. I bought them for a song then but really was'nt hooked on SxS's for another decade or so. Well we all know how that worked out.

My point is I believe that we are just in a down cycle related to the stagnant economy of the past 8 years. I am a small businessman who relies on other small businesses. The future of our economy just was'nt bright enough for the expenditure of any surplus cash on that next Parker. Now things might just brighten up a bit. The looming ban on lead shot would have made our guns obsolete. Now I think we have an administration in place that will not be assaulting everything that has to do with firearms.

I know Dean has his grandson Cam involved as well as many other members that have their children and grandchildren involved. I have two grandsons who are chomping at the bit to shoot and hunt with Pop. They will be shooting a SxS. We can only encourage them to enjoy what we love and hopefully they will be the next generation to take over the reigns.

I think it would be interesting to know the statistics of membership in the PGCA, median age of members and average number of years as a member. I think the data will show we as a group are growing older with fewer new younger members joining to replace us. There is no larger double gun collectors association than the PGCA, our statistics would be and are telling of the double gun market.

Young people are growing up in an amazing age of technology, they have grown accustomed to the latest and greatest gadgets. Their taste in firearms, antiques and motorcycles reflects this.

I saw a decline in hunting coming first hand when I worked for NH Fish & Game. I looked at the statistics for the number of 16 year old youth completing Hunter Education class for 2003. Age 16 was the first year they need the class to get a hunting license. I compared that number to the number of cities and towns in NH. At that time we had less than two 16 year old youth completing Hunter Education when divided by the number of cities and towns in the state. We are now 14 years later, the youth are not large enough in number to replace the generation that is leaving the sport due to health and or death.

A lot of good points have been made but a future sxs enthusiast has to be just that enthusiastic about these guns. I didn't start out with Parkers and Pre64 M70's but the enthusiasm for them came from reading about them and with the Parkers my Grandfather shot s lot of SXS's but the Parker was his favorite according to my Mom who would tell me about him. He died before I was born but the lure of the Parker was fostered by my mother.

I believe the market for a lot of things (unless I'm buying them:rotf:) is somewhat soft and that's due to several factors both economic and social. I have given much thought lately to thinning the guns. I don't really need the money but what do I need 40 M70's many in duplicate calibers or 15 or so 16's & 20's.for? Like Gary said there are guns in the safe that haven't seen the light of day in a decade. I have no family to leave them to so I might just as well sell them at least I have an idea of their value.

IMHO a person needs to have a desire to appreciate the craftsmanship of something that is no longer made be it a Parker, Winchester or a nice piece of solid oak furniture. My wife and I like antique furniture and there is a piece at a local shop that I would love to have but there is just no room for it.

At the end of the day I like my old guns and if there is something I want I'll buy it. I'll sell what I sell and die with the rest of them I guess.

My two oldest grandsons are nationally ranked sporting clays shooters, and hardly know how to look down a set of S x S barrels. My pumps and S x S guns are nothing but a curiosity to them

all i need is one more parker...i too believe thatinterest in old collectable items are slowing down...remember the big crowds that use to be at the drag strips there pretty thin at our track...charlie

The argument could be made that there was a "bubble" that burst and Parker values have yet to recover. Casual buyers and late comers to the Parker gun have lost interest and are trying to get some of their money back. The internet drove up prices and created a buzz that some tried to cash in on, who are now left holding the bag and dumping their guns. Small gauge guns are in demand, but even those prices seem to becoming ridiculous IMO. A bubble in small gauge guns? All these things have a cycle. Demand comes and goes.

Old Bird Odd Duck
 

It seems like when I go hunting these days I am the odd Duck with a gun that is nearly twice my age and I just turned 70. I agree with what you are saying the new hunters are more interested in horsepower and glitz not beauty or patina that was borne through caring hands. Everytime I'm in the field these days and I'm not with fellow SS hunters I am surrounded by plastic , carbon fiber and stamped metal if it even has any real metal on it. When I show up with a classic double like we all share passion for it takes a person pushing 50 to even ask "What's That" and then they may perk up to a response of it's a Parker, Model 21 ,LC or Ithaca. Something about shooting these old guns that hell most of the time don't even fit us modern frames makes me feel special and privileged to own and carry on the life of that fine piece of equipment. My last trip abroad was purposely made to do what the old explorers did and that I read about as a kid. that was to carry around a double barreled 12 pound 125 year old gun with hammers and shoot a 2000lb Cape Buffalo. Done just as dead as with a plastic stocked 416 Remington. As I preached in the article "American Heritage My Parker " I hope we can reach enough young hunters to carry the torch and handoff to the next generation. Too long winded I know but it's been on my mind as well as the rest of the readership. Thanks

My guns are shooters. That's what I bought them for. I enjoy having them and using them. In the aggregate they will be worth more than I've paid and in the meantime I've had the pleasure of their company.

Hope
 

Hello to all, As you can see I am a Lifetime member of this wonderful association. I maybe the last of my generation to be given a Parker, and instead of selling it, found a new and much needed lifetime hobby. That black, cold, intimidating, heavy, scary, shotgun at the top of my fathers gun rack gave me new life. For those of you who fear that our passion and love for these beautiful works of art will be simply become extinct, I give you Dean and Matthew Hanson. Two brothers, 45 and 52, who have taken up the Parker pride in full force. We are only two, but if we influence two.... and they influence two... well? The hunters are dwindling in numbers and yes collectors will probably own the high grade Parkers, but our VH's will go out shooting. I will probably never own a "collector" Parker, but if I did, I would shoot the living daylights out of it. Appreciate what we have. I listen to Russ, Charlie, Dean, George, Brad, Mills, Josh, Brian, John, Bill, Gary, Destry, Robin, and well, all you guys. I don't post a whole lot, but this thread, well... I will try my best to bleed Parker case colors to any and all who want to see the best. My Fathers 10 gauge is in my care, for now, I will find a new caregiver when the time comes. I will be happy to do it!!!

Deano

I, personally, am of the opinion that if we can't or won't involve younger folks, even the youth, in the shooting of these fine old guns, then we have lost them. The guns need to be appreciated for what they can do and what the shooter can do with them. Along with an appreciation for the capabilities of the gun will come a respect and even a reverence that just might morph into the collecting aspect of it all. But it needs to begin with the use and shooting of them.


Me. Pellegrini, I fear we are missing part of the conversation that lead to that statement... I wonder if - without including anyone's name - you might let us read the entire conversation you had?

Best, Dean

I have a table at a gun show in Chantilly Virginia and see the decline in the dealers with tables with high end guns our better dealer have left and now we have people selling fudge,beef jerky,eye class's and pickles. J.J.

The dealer drop-off at gun shows, I have been told by dealers themselves, is because so many of them do much better selling guns from their Internet sites. That's without having to pack loads of guns and related equipment halfway across the country. It's a matter of simple economics.





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