"Kf" or "K" in place of Barrel Steel on bbl flat
 

I'd like to do a survey of the time period when "K" or "Kf" was substituted for the barrel steel symbol on the barrel flat. I've thought that this might be a good subject for "Parkers Found" but we don't seem to have this feature in our fine publication any longer.

So who has a Parker Bros or gun(s):

• with "K" or "Kf";
• without barrel steel marking on barrel flat
• what is the serial number and date of manufature?

A new owner asked "2. What possible explanation is there for the barrel flats missing a mark indicating the type of barrel steel."

My response was, "Kingston to answer Q 2, Kf replaced markings for barrel steel during the time your gun was made."

Dean repectfully disagrees with my statement saying, "Gunner, I respectfully disagree with your explanation of the missing barrel steel stamp.
Thousands of guns produced both before and after 1906 have the barrel steel stamped on the forward end of the right barrel flat. And both Charles A. King's stamp along with the barrel steel stamp appear on most guns of the period, from what I've witnessed."

I don't disagree with Dean in that thousands of guns were produced before and after 1906 with the barrel steel stamp. I'm not certain that both King's stamp along with the barrel steel stamp appear on most guns of the period.
But what is the period? Certainly the majority of PB guns had the barrel steel stamp.

So having been corrected I went to the gun safe and looked at guns from SN 6xx to 232xxx. Very early lifters didn't have any bbl steel stamp on the barrel flat but that is not the period we are discussing.

The Brian Spires gun under discussion is SN 134796. I found the following guns marked as follows:

104906 Kf
112966 K
115154 T with concave radius top and bottom for twist bbls
135105 K

The one anomaly in the above 5 guns is a composite barrel that has the barrel steel stamp on the flats. Also of my other 3 guns only 135105 also has "w.k." in an oval.

I have noticed many other guns for sale bearing the King stamp that did not have the barrel steel indicated.

So I'd like to see this polite difference of an opinion turn into a research project and perhaps we can identify the period and the earliest and latest gun marked with the "K" or "Kf" alone.

I fully expect that there will be overlap with some guns having barrel steel stamps within what otherwise is the K period.

So will you pitch-in?
Please respond with

SN and date of manufacture

K or Kf

Barrel steel stamp on barrel flat if any if K or Kf is present

w.f. in oval if present

Great idea Eric - a great research project!

I too, will look at my Parkers and come up with serial numbers and their respective stamps and post them here.

Might not be for a few days - I'm headed for Vermont at sun-up tomorrow.

Best, Dean





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My Father's old VH waterfowl gun has the Kf where the barrel material stamp usually is. Serial number 106580, shipped July 2, 1902, to Seattle Hardware Co. Looks just like the picture at the bottom of page 252 of The Parker Story.

My NH, 74488, looks just like the picture on page 261, except mine has a tiny J where the H is on 79175. Same tiny A on the left barrel flat.

118298 - 1903 - Marked appropriately with a circled T and some distance away to the right of the barrel type stamp is what appears to be a lone "C". No k/kf

156428 - 1910 - Marked appropriately with a circled V. On the opposite side there is a circled JG. No k/kf

I'll check a few more later, but 95618 has the kf. It's a 12 gauge VH.

Does it have the barrel steel stamp?






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Dean,
Only the kf on the flats. Vulcan steel is on the rib.

Gary is 118298 a DH with Titanic steel?
I'm trying to start a spreadsheet.
Ho-hum everyone lets list some more data points.
Erick

118298 is a P grade with 26" twist barrels and letters as such

Here's my contribution to the project, Eric:

105771 VH 20ga 1901 Kf , barrel weight only no barrel steel marking
140131 VH 20ga 1906 W.K.(in circle), V (also circled), barrel weight and a very small 8 near the end of the left barrel by the extractor
120860 VH 16ga 1903 Kf , barrel weight only no barrel steel marking
119075 VH 12ga 1903 Kf and barrel weight no barrel steel marking
106822 GH 12ga 1901 D (damascus steel barrels), G (grade?) barrel weight and a very small + stamped at the end of the right barrel near the extractor (no WK, K, Kf)
231426 SC 12ga 1929 small H7 with an A underneath, A (acme steel), barrel weight, overload proofed on both barrels and Rem repair codes AD3 (Mar '35 service section received) on left and a small 4 (return as received?)on the right barrel
Good luck!

Only two of my Hammerless guns are pre 1900, and only one of them, 88490, a Titanic Barreled CH, has the K in lieu of a barrel steel marking. All of my hammer guns are marked with the material designation, and no K or Kf.

Here is mine
 

102399,VH 20 gauge, ordered February 8th 1901, shipped July 23rd 1901. The right Barrel flat marked Kf with the weight 2 15 and an X near the breach end. The left barrel flat marked PAT'D APR 11 1876. The rib is marked; Parker Brothers Makers Meriden Conn. Vulcan Steel

Are you certain the T is in a circle or does the T have a crescent above and below the T as a Twist Steel barreled gun should have?





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Well, I thought it was just a poor stamping but it does have an arc above and below. See picture

Yes Gary, that is the stamp for Twist Steel - a crescent above and a crescent below the T.





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Here is a list of many of my hammerless guns in ascending serial number order:...

57043 D (Damascus) J above 5 lb., 11oz
67669 D (") C above 3 lbs., 14oz
67772 4 above D (") C above 4 lbs., 1oz
73264 A6 above D (") 3 lbs., 7oz Left + and Right +
76084 4 above D (") C above 3 lbs., 5oz A
90739 K (no barrel steel stamp) 4 lbs., 3oz 3 (grade) Left + and Right +
142193 T in the circle 3 lbs., 6oz 3 (") W.K. in oval
147673 4 above D (") C above 3 lbs., 2oz 3 (") W.K. in oval & Yankees stamp(?)
149020 4 above D (") C above 3 lbs. 3 (")
163160 T in the circle 3 lbs., 4oz 3 (") J.G. in circle & Yankees stamp(?)
228145 HT over A, V in the circle, 2 lbs., 15oz, Overload Proved Parker Bros


So, only 90739, an 1899 gun, meets the criteria we are looking for, and it appears at probably the beginning of the Kf stamp in lieu of the steel type stamp 'era'.

I would surmise that such stamps would certainly have ended in 1910 (or before) as that is when Charles A. King stepped down from his position of Gun Works Superintendent and his son Walter King took the position.


Can anyone supply printed documentation of this having been a standard practice - that of the elimination of the barrel steel type formerly stamped on the forward part of the right barrel flat and having been replaced by C.A.K.'s 'finished' (f) inspection stamp?






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123622 1904 has the kf and barrel weight no other markings on the flats but on barrels says Vulcan Steel.

I've been studying on this for a while now.

I have recorded Vulcan Steel barrels with the Kf from 103266 to 133683. 135013 is the lowest V in a circle I've recorded.

I've recorded barrels with the Titanic Steel and Acme Steel rib legend and the K in the barrel steel location on the flat from 105974 to 146730. Lowest T in circle 151999.

ser# 100525 Kf plus barrel wt and Vulcan steel on rib.

Bill

VH 12 ga
142422 (1907)
WK
K
V
3 15
1 1/2

No other stamps!

I'm thinking it is becoming pretty safe to say that from the introduction of steel barrels in the latter 1890s to maybe sometime in the 1905 to 07 time frame K for Titanic Steel or a few Acme Steel and the Kf for Vulcan Steel barrels are the barrel steel markings.

And, the idea that the Kf was CAK's mark is debunked. If it was his mark, why would it only appear on Vulcan Steel barrels?

Quality VH 12-gauge serial number 95553 is presently being offered for sale on GI, but the seller doesn't include a picture of the barrel flats!!

David please clarify, 1905 to about 1907 K was used for Titanic steel and Kf for Vulcan? My 1907 VH is stamped K not Kf. But it does have the V in a ⭕️!

127534 has K stamp. 132430 has K stamp and wk circled. Both are C grade guns with Titanic barrels.

I didn't say "1905 to about 1907." I said "from the introduction of steel barrels in the latter 1890s to maybe sometime in the 1905 to 07 time frame"

Where is it stamped K?

Just a guess, but how about using up old stock barrel tubes as they changed to a new supplier? Transitional.

The meaning and significance of this term has been debated over the years. When I asked Bob Runge years ago in Del Grego's shop what he thought it represented, he said he believed it signified that all work on the barrel had been completed and that the barrel was ready to advance into the next phase of gun building.

His take on the 'K' was that it was definitely a reference to King - Walter or Charles, and that the f was in effect a final inspector's approval mark, most likely taken from the German word "fertig", meaning finished or completed.

During the era Dave cites, many of the employees of the barrel and action shop were German immigrants who had a minimal passing knowledge of English, but communicated in their own craftsman's orbit using symbols and terms that came to be used in-house as definitive codes of approval.

Personally I subscribe to Bob's interpretation of both the terms of the mark; I do not believe the 'K" has any significant distinction whatsoever as to barrel steel type, only the production era management persona (e.g., Charles v. Walter), and the adaptation of the f as as a term of significance in the vernacular of the native language of craftsmen in the barrel shop at the time makes eminent sense to me.

And then there was also the stamp W.K. In an oval which, I don’t think it can be argued, must have indicated Walter Kink, who took over as superintendent of the gun plant in 1910 from his father Charles Alonzo King. Charles Kink’s stamp was K and the years during which Kf appeared on the left barrel flat will most likely identify which King it represented.





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Stamped on the lug next to the frame size. Still very interesting topic!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Bob Runge hadn't even been born by the years the K and the Kf were appearing in the barrel steel location.

Attachment 90435

Attachment 90434

The Walter King WK in an oval begins appearing in the 131xxx range. Here is a Titanic Steel barrel gun in the 131xxx range with the K in the barrel steel location and the WK in an oval --

Attachment 90436

Here is a 1906 vintage Vulcan Steel gun in the 138xxx range that has the V in a circle barrel steel marking. It doesn't have the Walter King WK in an oval, but it does have a tiny K on the barrel lug.

Attachment 90437

By the 151xxx range we see the James Geary JG in an oval marking

[QUOTE=Dave Noreen;317157]Not to put too fine a point on it, but Bob Runge hadn't even been born by the years the K and the Kf were appearing in the barrel steel location.

Correct, but his grandfather, Richard R. Runge, was foreman of the barrel finishing room immediately after the turn of the century (I never found out the exact date(s) he worked there - but he certainly would have had a hand in developing identifying marks of production in his shop.

1906 CHE with Titanic steel barrels. WK in oval on left barrel flat. #134260

Wow Randy - that’s interesting on multiple levels.





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Dean it's a very interesting gun for sure, one of my favorites. Unusual, unknown markings on the flats add to the mystery. Fabulous and informative thread BTW, thanks to our OP !