Bismuth Duck Loads
 

Gentlemen

I wanted to see what you guys with years of experience with hunting loads think about my ideal. I am shooting a 1929 Sterlingworth 2 1/2 in shells. I have a 7/8 oz load that I shoot skeet with. If I loaded the same load with Bismuth do you think it would work well with Ducks over Decoys ? Do you think 7/8 load is enough of 4 or 5 shot? If the velocity is around 1150 to 1200 fps. I would say probably all my shots would be 35 yards or less. 45 max..... what do yall think.
If this will work I would only have about 6200 - 7000 psi.

Thanks in advance for any insight anyone might have.
See you in the fields!

Your Fox is a stout old gun. I would not hesitate to shoot 1 1/8 oz loads through it. Check out RST's non-tox loads. My father took ducks with a 20 gauge Trojan imp cylinder and mod back in the 30's using modest 7/8 oz loads, but I think he waited to smell their breath before he shot.

If you are just substituting bismuth for lead


How do you know what the pressure will be?

Have they been tested

Yes I wait till there close too. About a foot over the decoys is good for me. Lol I don't miss much like that I'm shooting 30in full and full. No I hadn't had them tested. Although I think I would. I like to know where I'm at.

Over at precision Keith told me he had a load of 1 oz of bismuth that tested at 8400. I think that was what he said. It was for 2 1/2 in 12 gauge also

I have 4 boxes of rst bismuth. But you never know when this stuff goes extinct. Lol

Rio and Kent are currently loading Bismuth

Are they loading 2 1/2 in 12 gauge

No.

I can't help with a 7/8 ounce loading for bismuth, but 7/8 ounce is a light load for a 12-gauge and bismuth is only about 80% as dense as lead shot and thus will bleed off speed way more rapidly after it leaves the muzzle. Also, of course we are all sportsmen with our SxS's and go out with intentions of only taking shorter decoyed shots, but who can resist a flock of greenheads that flare away at 50 yards or so after a long morning with no action in the blind?

I often write about the use of lower velocity/lighter shot loadings on game animals and how that can inflict shallow wounds and result in cripples when the scene isn't just right or the range stretches out. This was driven home to me after processing grouse and pheasants taken with so-called low pressure factory shells marketed to gents who want same to "be kind" to their vintage guns with old dry wood etc. So you have a box of specialty shells that's supposed to be 1125 or 1150 or even 1200 fps. How do you know that? Have you checked with a shotgun chronograph to verify that speed? Same as you checked the mpg rating on your new vehicle's window sticker versus what you actually get on the road? Do we ever wonder why those vintager-type shells are mild to shoot? Magic dust in the powder? Sure these low pressure factory shells will break clays, and gents will often say how this or that vintager shell will absolutely crush targets, but how many reports have we seen on deep penetration into the vitals of game animals? I for one have seen relatively shallow penetration when such shells are used at moderate to longer ranges.

Best advice I can give for hunting is to use enough gun for the game along with using enough good shot @ the regular speed for hunting loads as we used in our youth.

Well said, Frank. Heck, you can kill a grouse, duck, or whatever with a 410 under some circumstances. How many cripples occur when the shooter thinks he missed cleanly. Quite a few. Far to many folks measure shell performance based on clay target performance. Clays and live birds are to entirely different animals. I examine every grouse I shoot for pellet performance and there is no substitute for using enough gun and large enough shot. Leave your light and slow loads on the clays field. Hunting is all about the welfare of the resource.

I see what you are saying. But what do you consider enough shot and enough velocity?? I know that if I shoot 1 1/4 oz shot it won't make a bigger pattern to cover for those slightly off target shots. But what kind of velocity do you consider enough. I thought 1200 was enough for most hunting needs. As I am new to shotshell reloading I would like to hear what yalls thoughts are

1-1/4 ounce won't necessarily make a bigger pattern but it will make a denser one than 7/8 ounce, with more pellet strikes per bird at any given yardage. And pellet strikes and penetration are the name of the game. Now, compare those modern vintager-type low pressure loads for duck hunting with the common "High Brass" 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce lead shot loads that I used when I was a kid, and still use today for heavier game when lead is allowed. They came in at about 1330 fps. And that period 12-gauge low brass field load with 1-1/8 ounce had about 1225 speed. Most duck hunters back then would load up with those high brass shells to cover any/all yardages, a no brainer. And old time small game hunters often had low and high brass shells in right and left barrels respectively. Nowadays I will think about those shot load and velocity parameters when choosing the gun and shells for whatever I'm hunting. And if I don't have a SxS that will handle such loads I'll relegate it to clays and choose another gun for hunting that will.


I know this will get some readers irritated but I just about get shivers whenever someone talks about how light shot charges will pattern way better and are just as good or even more effective than heavy ones, also about so-called square loads having some magic quality that makes them much superior to others in the same gauge but with a longer shot column. One last comment when comparing something like a 7/8 ounce load in 12-gauge to a 1-1/4 ounce one .... when the gun goes bang that extra 3/8 ounce has to go somewhere. Ha! :bigbye:

7/8oz bismuth loads in any gauge have no place in duck hunting in my opinion. 1 1/4 oz loads do not make up for poor shooting. Ducks are a resource that should not be wasted and we should respect the resource with adequate loads and off season shooting practice. I have shot many hundreds of ducks with bismuth and I consider 1 1/8oz bismuth loads at 1200fps the minimum for ducks over decoys. Later in the season 1 1/4oz bismuth at 1200fps is the minimum. There are plenty of adequate bismuth published loads.

Lol. I like the one about the extra 3/8 of a ounce going somewhere. Lol. Good one. To make it clear I hadn't loaded any bismuth hunting loads. I was just trying to see what y'all thought it would take. I bought 4 boxes of bismuth from RST. I just checked them. They are 1 oz at 1200 fps. I think I remember reading somewhere that when they proofed these old sterlingworth barrels that they did it with 1 1/4 oz loads. I think that's right. I just don't no what pressure I can safely get it up to. no one in their right mind want to see wildlife get away crippled or maimed. Anyone know what is a safe psi for my gun ???

Right outside my back door. They nest in shrubs in our neighborhood Attachment 50182

I just found data for longshot powder with 7200 psi @ 1350 fps. And that's with 1 1/4 oz bismuth. That should be ok on my old gun. What do y'all think. It's on hodgdon site. It's for a 2 3/4 in but I'm sure I could find a way to get it into a 2 1/2. Any comments.

Sherman Bell did a series of articles in Double Gun Journal called Finding Out For Myself. In one of these he shot cartridges longer than the chamber. i.e.: 2 3/4' shells in 2 1/2" chambers and continued on to shoot 3 1/2" shells out of 3" chambered guns. He even shot 3 1/2" shells out of a 2 3/4" chamber. The end result was that chamber pressures increased by a whopping 300 psi. He concluded that the pressure spike was negligible. I agree. I shoot 2 3/4" modern loads out of an 1881 Parker with Twist steel barrels that has 2 1/2" chambers without event and have done so for so long I no longer flinch at the thought of it. Your Fox is one of the good ones. Shoot the snot out of it with anything but steel shot.

Thanks guys for all the info. Looks like 1 1/4 oz is the way to go. I am curious as I have a bunch of fiber wads. Would it be ok to load bismuth with fiber wads. Does anyone know if it would damage the barrel with bismuth skidding down it . It would allow for more shot in a shell. Any thoughts anyone

Kirk you seem to like to play reloading roulette, good luck and I hope your insurance man is not a forum member.

Well you lost me CL. Not sure what you mean. Do you think my gun shouldn't shoot these loads ?

Kirk - I think the point was - similar to my first post, is that you are looking to assemble loads by conjecture rather than using proven recipes

there is tested bismuth loading data available that will list the components needed.

Oh. I see. I would never shoot any loads without having them tested first. Sorry about that. Yeah I wouldn't just guess at it. But I was thinking about loading 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz with fiber wads to send to precision to test. I found a longshot load for 2 3/4. My gun is chambered for 2 1/2. I know everyone says you can shoot 2 3/4 shells but I don't even want to risk that. But yeah I'm not near experienced enough to just start making loads and saying they are ok. Thanks for the clarification.

P.s. Maybe my lack of experience is why my questions seem kinda dumb. Can't learn if you don't ask. Thanks guys

I found this on another thread on this site....thought you guys might like it.
Here you go Kirk
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog recommended 12g loads (courtesy of David Noreen)
DuPont, “E.C.”, and “Schultze” Bulk Smokeless 3 Dram 1 1/8 oz.
Dense Infallible 20 - 24 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot
Dense Ballistite 20 - 22 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot

1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.
__________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascuskn...e.com/www/home

Try this link....great read https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...vwLYc-kGA/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

These are 2 very good articles. Great info for vintage gunners and barrels ,pressures.

From what I am hearing the pressures are up near the top, that's just what I have heard. The only thing that I do know is that Kent emailed me back on their Bismuth 16's and said pressure was around 9000, which is not bad if you think you may shoot a couple of boxes a season and then go back to low pressure loads for clays.

Thanks Eric

I asked Rio about pressure in their bismuth a couple times, they said they would get back to me. Still waiting

But. At least with me. - any factory non tox loads go through my 3 frame 12 or LC Smith long range

Short tens and damascus and twist barreled 12s get lighter reloads

Gentle I found this on a different form regarding trying to work up a low pressure load for Bismuth for my old fox.....

Responding to "Longshot Powder Problems". My name is Ron Reiber and I am the product manager at Hodgdon Powder Company. I casually watch posts that discuss powders that we manufacture, and try to rectify any misconceptions that occur regarding their use. Longshot was developed to be used primarily as a field powder for use in 28,20,16,12 and 10 gauge, and it is excellent in all those applications. Properly used for the long range target/back fence games, it works equally well.
However, this is America, and Americans always believe "more" is better. Not so in shotgun. When used towards the bottom end of the listings for 1 1/8 oz and 1 1/4 oz, pressures are moderate, peak time is long, and set-back of shot is minimal, which delivers excellent patterns. Truthfully, 1150 fps to 1250 fps gives ideal patterns with minimal fliers,and is my personal favorite loading range. Managing a ballistics laboratory for 36 years teaches you the nuances of shotshell loads, and what works best. Yes, 1 1/8oz loads of very slow burning powder are loud at the upper end because you are burning a great deal of slow burning powder, and that simply translates into LOUD. Why get the crap beat out of you if slower velocities pattern better?? Limiting what people use on those games is like having the left tell you that you must give up your guns. Use commons sense and ask those individuals to use lesser loads in their ammunition. They need to learn more about reloading, and what actually works to their benefit, and you as competitors need to insist they do just that!!
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Longshot Powder. Our nearest competitor realized the value in this fine product and made a copy called ProReach, just like they copied Clays with Clay Dot.
Don't be a leftist and start banning perfectly good products, do your part and control how they are used on your ranges!
Thanks for taking the time to read this note!

Sounds promising...although I have no experience with Longshot...only read where it will knock birds out of the upper stratosphere. When loaded to the hilt... Anyone on here have any experience with slowing this powder down. I plan on loading a couple of different loads and having them tested. Any tip would be helpful.

Kirk, you're overthinking what's best for you. Forget high velocity and the powder that takes them out of the sky, boom-bam. Mr. Rieber of Hodgdon is correct. Go to Hodgdon recipes and choose. I use Longshot bismuth in 16 and 12 gauges at pressures of 6900 and 7000psi and 1185 and 1175 fps respectively. The results are satisfactory. Your shooting skill is the determinant of success, not the powder or the load.

Thanks King. That sounds good to me. Yes I'm not looking to shoot ducks in the next county. It seems slowed down longshot makes pretty low pressures. That's what I'm after. Thanks for the confirmation. Have a great weekend

Kirk, the post you made on the bottom of page 3 was very good, thanks.

You bet Paul. I am going to give it a try. Hope it works out for you

Paul
I just spoke to Hodgdon Tech support. They said that Ron that works there must not have been speaking about 12 gauge . He said that Longshot wouldn't work with a 1oz. That was my first question. Second that you couldn't slow it down or it wouldn't burn all the powder and would leave a wad in the barrel worst case. Not sure what shot load or gauge you were thinking but I wanted to give you a heads up. He said its a magnum powder for high velocities. Not sure what to think now.

Gentlemen, The results are in on Bismuth and Longshot..... I had tested 2 strings tested,everything same except wads. 1 1/8 oz. of 4 shot came in at 1170 fps to 1192 fps @5700psi. to 6200 psi.....I would think that would be sufficient for ducks. What do yall think ??? Iam sure I can bump it up a little for my old Sterlingworth and still be safe if needed. Thanks for any advise in advance.

See you in the Field !!!

I think experimenting with these loads and testing them is half the fun !!! lol

so what was the final load/components ?

2 1/2 cheddite hull and primer . 25gn longshot. Tuwz2m15 wad from precision. And 1 1/8 bismuth. I think that will work don't you Rick

I think those specs are fine

The variance is not bad. No filler in the bismuth?