Mystery gun?
 

I need help to identify this double. It has a ser. no. of 236 and that is it. Thanks Thomas

I guess photo's would help. It a bitch when you get old. Thomas

are there barrels?

what are the proofs on the water table

Rick: Not a one but the ser. no. and yes I have the barrels with both top and bottom ribs coming off. Thomas

The action looks like a greener on many ways. Maybe another maker using their design.

Appears to be a nice Greener. Strange it has no marks. I would email Graham Greener with the pictures and the serial number.

Looks like a greener to me and it was a nice one.

It certainly looks like a Greener to me as well. I know of no other maker that used the side safety of this configuration other than Greener.

there were German guns made by a couple makers with that safety- but the engraving does not look Germanic,

it seems odd a British made gun would not have proof marks on the water table

Thomas:
It's a Greener. If sold in the US it required no British proof. Where is the No. 236? On the barrels? Is it enclosed in a diamond? It could be a use number...

John: It is on the barrel/receiver/forend metal with no diamond. It gets better with these other fhoto's. Thomas

What ever it is, it's pretty.

oops

Thomas:
I'd say the 236 is an assembly number to keep the bits together in process at the factory. The number on the stock is a property number. Company? Government? The painted characters are Asian. I'm no expert on that. Chinese? The history of this gun could be VERY interesting.

educate me please- doesn't a gun manufactured in the UK require at minimum a provisional proof prior to assembly??

I was thinking they were Japanese.I will have to get checked out for its meaning. Thomas

One would think so, but apparently not. The key is where the gun was to be sold. If that location was outside of the UK or the Empire, proofs were not required. Many British-made guns sold in the US during the 19th century have no proofs.

This was probably a cost decision. Proof cost money. And if a maker wasn't required to submit for proof, save a few quid, and sell the finished gun where there was no proof anyway - like the USA - then why not?

If the gun was going anywhere in the Commonwealth, proof was required.

Agree on the potential for an interesting history lesson. Perhaps this gun made its way to the outskirts of the British Empire, one that was subsequently conquered by the Japanese?

John: What was that UK firm/agency (Ltd.??) that sold sporting arms to British military personnel stationed throughout the world?? I can see the letters: CSL??? Arrrrgh, I blew a fuse. :banghead:

The Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd

Or CSL

Attachment 43640

Thanks, Rick....knew I was somewhere near the ball park!

I know a local gentleman who owns a Greener 8 bore that was made on special order for export to the USA. Baltimore Maryland was the location of the original owner. It is an Pincepts action. It does have a full set of English proofs on it.

The engraving doesn't look right and no proofs . I think a well done copy of a Greener.

George: You could be correct but do you know of others that are copy's of W.W.Greeners. Thomas

Thomas:
Can we please see the action flats, barrel flats, and forend iron?

It may help.

I do not think this is a "copy." Who would copy a low grade Greener? And for God's sake why?

John: I'll take some tomorrow. How low of grade do think it is. Thomas

A Japanese knock-off of a Greener. A buddy who spent some time in Japan working for the Pacific Stars & Stripes, has a couple of Japanese made knock-offs of more typical Birmingham boxlocks.

I have seen a Belgian copy of a Greener. Japanese copies of Westley Richards A&D actions are well known.

The engraving not only does not look like Greener's, it has an Asian look.

No way a gun is built in England without proof. Export or not.

I think Researcher is right. Not because he agrees with me. Because he is always right.

Thomas,

When I say it is a copy I am not implying that it is of low quality. The Japanese have made many very nice guns. Judge it in hand for yourself.

George

I'm having a lot of fun with this so keep the comments coming. I have no clue what it is but I'm leaning in the direction of Japanese copy. I need to have the barrels repaired so may not be worth the effort. Thomas

I don't know if this will help but here goes. Thomas

The only other number besides 236 is a small 4 on barrel flats. Thomas

I may have been incorrect. I dug my Greener out of the safe and compared the two. there are differences. The hinge pin is different. The engraving looks more Belgium than English. But it dose appear to be a very close copy.

I'm not sure I want to spend400 to 500 to get the top and bottom ribs redone and have a 500.00 dollar gun. Thomas

I decided to fix the barrels and have a complete gun. It is at the shop now so will wait to see how it turns out. Thomas

Very good. Sometimes it's about more than the resale value.

I found a relative I believe this week end at the local gun show. It is a 12 ga. with 34 inch barrels so thought you might want a look. Thomas

couple more with ser. no. 1001 Thomas

Thomas Charlie is already trying to figure out what type of slugs he can shoot in your gun. He is dueling over the sights. That is a really cool gun.

What is the bore size of the single barrel?

That is a cool gun. That may be the most tempting single barrel trap gun I have seen.