Future of Parker Collection and Double Gun Collecting
 

It seems to me that most double gun collectors are not in the 18 to 30 range and I do not know how many of our organization are under 30 like myself but it does not seem like a lot.(I think this just goes to show with age comes wisdom) So what do you think will be the future of these guns? What will happen in 30 years when the majority of those interested in these guns are gone? I would hope that more younger people take interest but from my experience my generation has no interest in antique vintage guns of any kind. It is not hard to find people interested in guns and many interested in buying their first gun but all go right to buying glocks and ar-15s. I do my best to get friends interested by taking out my stuff and having them shoot them but I have never successfully interested anyone in buying or collecting them. What do you guys think?

Collectors normally don't get interested in shotguns costing thousands of dollars until the get to the age where they can pay for them.

And in the current (for the last decade plus) economy, that will not soon happen. Every younger person I talk to balks at the price of buying even an inexpensive Parker of $2K or less.

I see part of the problem, as the lack/difficulty of upland hunting opportunities. It used to be that a youngster got involved with hunting and guns by small game hunting, rabbits and birds. Now it is the almighty deer that drives youth hunting and you don't use doubles for that. I have been a chapter chairman for the Ruffed Grouse Society for 30 years now, and most of the people that attend haven't seen a grouse in 10 years, thus the interest in that kind of hunting doesn't develop. My son, 27, has shot deer and turkeys, but has never shot a grouse--he has shot game farm pheasant. When I was in college, I was reading the works of Spillers, Woolner, Evans, Knight, etc and within 6 weeks of graduating from optometry school bought a Brittany, and a 16 ga Fox SW Deluxe and 16 ga Parker VH 16( still shoot both) because that was what in my mind were the proper guns for upland hunting. My father was a hunter, but he died when I was 7, luckily, I had mentors in my Uncle Sam, and my best friend's(Terry) father who looked after a poor(and yes, we were quite poor) boy and took me hunting(rabbits and grouse) frequently. I killed my first grouse with a 12 ga SXS, one of those Stevens with the nylon stock--boy did it kick--and I have been shooting SXS's since.
I know this is kind of a long diatribe, but we must first get the youth interested in hunting upland and expose them to double guns so that when they are older they can appreciate good/fine guns and continue our passion.

To borrow a phrase from Robert Ruark, "Something of Value" begins with one's perception of value.

In our case, that value only partially resides in the gun itself. Sure, Parkers and other fine double guns have intrinsic value. They are not only tools of sport, but works of art.

But to find true value in the double gun, it must encompass intangible things. Like a crisp, clear Autumn morning. The excitment of youth. The anticipation of the flush. A great dog and companion. And... in great measure, a reverence for the tradition of hunting and shooting along with a respect for the game involved.

Sadly, today's youth have little of that. They see guns as they see computers. As machines. And the context they are used in is combat. Virtual or otherwise. Thus, black guns and pistols with plastic stocks are the norm. Double guns with engraving and figured wood stocks are not.

The traditions of America also also gone. Nothing is revered. Nothing is romantic. The measure of success in anything is quantity. Like piled up doves... or a top score in Call of Duty.

It all adds up to a cultural shift. The cost issue is only part of that. I priced a new Ruger 762 the other day. They're $1800 worth of plastic, paint and sloppy fit. No thank you.

Still, I would love to get more young people involved in doubles. And I think the PGCA has made a good start with its youth efforts. They should be expanded.

But age does not always bring sophistication in taste. Or wealth.

Enjoy your doubles whilst ye may...

Well said Mr Campbell!!

The answer to the original question posed is multifactorial.
One facet is exposure to the guns/ culture/ etc.
I would imagine most here have memories / fond memories of dad or grand dad and other companions who hunted/ carried/ shot side by sides. Each year and each generation we are getting future away from that exposure. The distance created is by cultural changes/ technology advances in shotguns/ etc.
So it would be concluded that a young person today who has no exposure to a Parker, or other side by side/ vintage gun, would seek out that treasure/ or object of value in the future. They have no or very little tie to such a thing.

IMO that is why the PGCA/LCSCA/ FCA/ etc are so important. These organizations will be the tools to provide the exposure to the public/ interested parties. Events like the Southern side by side and Vintage Cup/ Pheasant fest/ Orvis Cup etc are serving the same purpose.

I think with the continued existence of the PGCA and other organizations like it the future of double guns is bright and full of possibilities.

Right on Dr. John!

Key words are certainly "exposure" and "the future of double guns is bright and full of possibilities." but it is our (every one of us) responsibility to expose young folks to these guns and the activities and fun that goes along with it... or the 'possibilities' will be very limited.

Come on Bill!! Doesn't everyone start in their teens like we did? I mowed a lot of lawns and still had to borrow $40 from my Father for that Super-Fox.

In my case gun preferences seem to have skipped a generation. I started my oldest son shooting with a sxs on clay birds thrown with a hand thrower. He hit a few, and showed some interest in shooting but never did well until I bought him an over/under. I don't know if it was the fit, or feel, of the over/under but his shooting improved with that gun. We still shoot at various sxs events and he enjoys using my Parker's but whenever he shoots alone he goes right back to the over/under. My Grandsons, on the other hand, go right to the Parker's and Foxes. So maybe there is some hope. There might be a waning of interest now, but I don't think that the future of side x sides is as bleak as it appears.

Bill I have found many good usable doubles locally for around 500 dollars about the cost of a glock. Especially Ithacas and Bakers. Also many gun owners I know are willing to spend over 3000 on an AR.

Eldon you bring up a point I have often pondered my self. first let me commend you on your interest in these fine guns at an early age. I always thought I'd leave my guns to my little brother as he liked to shoot and hunt but unfortunately he left us to early. I have a daughter who has no interest in my collection at all so there's no future there.
Our youth as mentioned in other posts is a generation for the most part interested in instant gratification and the newest gizmo's. The history behind these guns and not just shotguns but rifles such as Pre 64 Winchesters is lost on them. There is little nostalgia left in today's America as I see it. I can sit in a deer blind and wonder who carried the M70 before me, what did the prior custodian use it for, did he take a deer with it?
IMHO the biggest determent to our youth and these old guns is the cost they are reaching. Jobs are scarce money is tight and younger people are raising families not spending thousands of dollars on a Parker, Fox or Winchester.
I go to a lot of SXS shoots and it's rare to see Dad and son or daughter shooting alongside them.
I have often considered cutting back to a couple of rifles and shotguns and selling the rest while the market is good but somehow I just can't bring myself to do it.....yet.

I think there will always be a market for these guns. To judge future collectors / shooters by what the younger generations like right now might be a fallacy. A lot of My generation back in the day were hippies, freaks and flower children. Now, I'll bet some are Parker collectors. Fortunately most in my gen moved on. Unfortunately, The rest reside in politics.

I agree Mike there will always be a market. I am in my late 20s and grew up in a gun shop so naturally I was born with the gunsmithing and collecting bug. Most people my age, including myself, don't have the money to collect a bunch of doubles but that doesn't mean we won't find them interesting and valuable in the future. The same could be said for motorcycles or classic cars. You don't see many 20-30 year olds driving Harleys and buying up classic 150K muscle cars at Barrett-Jackson auctions but that doesn't mean the market is dieing. As long as organizations like the PGCA keep growing in members from year to year I think we will be fine.

I dunno when I was in my early teens I was interested in doubles , granted I couldn't afford an A1 Special but I can't now either . But you have to take into consideration I grew up in a household where pumps or semi autos were disdained . So doubles , bird dogs , trap and skeet were a natural progression . I would like to think there are still some youngsters growing up in that environment albeit very few .

The way to do it is one at a time. It is up to all of us to each do our part.

I agree mills all we can do is show people what they are and why we love them and hope they gain interest. My experience may be skewed as I live in a large city with little hunting and little interest in shotguns in general.

I am very optimistic about the future of vintage double gun collecting. This year we had more youth hunters than ever at our duck club for youth day. The interesting thing to me is the number of female youth hunters in the current generation. Our female youth hunter shot more ducks than any of the guys!! She also was the only young female to bag a turkey in the youth season in the spring. Anyhow, all of these young hunters where exposed to vintage doubles and one hunted ducks during the youth season with a Parker. This summer we intend to host a youth clays day and let any of the young folks experience the joy of shooting a vintage double. They may not be hooked for various reason until they mature but like us they will never forget the experience. The future looks bright but as others have said we need to plant the seed.

It seems to me that to get younger people interested in classic American guns they have to first be willing and able to use one and have fun doing it.

Harold is correct; the days of easily available bird hunting, except in the upper Midwest, parts of the North East and the West are gone. The Old South with it's famous quail hunting is gone, replaced with a huge pine monoculture. You have to "pay to play" in Texas and the damn 10 year old drought has drastically reduced quail numbers.

To get teenagers interested in bird hunting now, when they have to toil and sweat buckets to even see a grouse or shoot at a quail covey rise, is almost impossible. They'd rather sit in front of the computer and play in comfort. Some one who is just beginning a sport or hobby needs a few quick wins to keep their interest going. There are damn few quick wins now-a-days in bird hunting.

The clay shooting associations (Sporting Clays, etc) are doing a pretty good job in youth shooting instruction and youth shooting leagues, but one sees only a very few clays shooters using classics such as a 16 gauge Parker DHE as I do. Tricked out O/Us and semi autos rule, so I don't see any near immediate gains in classic SxS shooters there. Hopefully as they get older....

No doubt everyone who has called for supporting youth shooting is correct; but I am fairly pessimistic about the current high interest in classic SxS guns lasting for the long term.

I hope I am wrong.

I am optimistic too. Partly because I have seen organizations in Savannah where the average age was about 60 or 70 gain a large number of young members. You get one, then another, pretty soon you have a bunch.

There is a perception that Parkers and vintage guns are expensive and valuable when there are plenty of affordable shooters in the lower grades.

In addition to Mr. Goddard's original post. When I was in my early twenties I started trap shooting. You could of put a $1,000 in my hand and asked me to break a target with a sxs and I would have said "keep your money". Now in my early 60's I started sporting clays. I also work all the events at Backwoods Quail Club in SC. Three years ago I worked my first Fall Southern SXS Classic. I, as you might say, "was infected with the Parker disease". I couldn't search enough info about Parkers and couldn't read enough about Parkers. As said before, the appreciation comes with a little age. I do believe the tradition will carry on.

Craig Larter and a couple of others have mentioned that the first step is to introduce young people to shooting and hunting and then explain to them that there is a "tradition" involved in blood sports. The explanation of the "tradition" is what is the difficult part. Putting side by side shotguns in their hands is the easy part. Sponsoring "side by side" events in sporting clays shoots is another possibility. All of these Ducks Unlimited, Quail Unlimited, and Grouse Unlimited events in our area around Washington, DC have side by side events as sub-events, even if they have to be sponsored by double gun people. Side by side events cause people who want to win "Something" to enter those events. Thanks for posting your suggestions.

I have thought about this also. Creating the venues for shooting is part of the solution. The firearm is another. I have a very modest collection and have decided to "gift" my individual guns to persons that I think will enjoy them before I pass on. I will ask them to agree to do the same thing with the guns when their time comes
I figure I will lose some and win more.

I have wondered the future of hunting for a few years.Being in the business I have seen several trends that aggravate me.One everyone seems to want to eject shells as fast as they can.Never learning to hit anything before they pull the trigger.And second is not as bad but still bothers me is that people seem to want to hunt in the absolute largest group they can now days.Rarely do I get singles or double hunters any more.Its not cost other than gas to and from.Its more like an attempt at experiencing the outdoors but lets have a party while were doing it.
I have been trying to do my part by buying every sxs I can get my hands on at a good price and using them as loaners instead of the semi autos and pumps I used to use for that.I'll buy every stevens I can and have turned many beginners into sxs fans from the beginning of their new hobby.I'll sell them cheap when asked in hopes of making some new clients with similar interest in guns.Actually sold all my stevens 20ga's during dove season.
Someone said it earlier one or two at a time adds up.

While I agree with this statement I must add that we need to be cautious.

Our local group was started as a group of men & women dedicated to the collection, preservation, heritage, and enjoyment of the side by side shotgun and rifle. Recently it seems that the leaders of this group have become more interested in competition. The old classics are disappearing from the events and are being replaced with more modern or customized guns. Needless to say there has been a decline in the older members that came to the events to talk sxs, check out the displays and enjoy a lunch with their friends.

All of these post have truth to them, Double guns are addictive and will always be!I collected black guns early on and pistols, My first Parker was a P grade, I was 48 years old, had heard about Parkers, Smiths, etc but they did not interest me, Then 25 years ago my collecting world changed, I studied that P grade, I must have opened and closed it a hundred times shooting at the invisible bird going across my ceiling, I finally had discovered what I had been looking for in a gun, and only realized it when I held that Parker. Yes I finally could afford to buy one now and then, 25 years later, and yes I was late getting into the game, I am a fan! Young people educated the right way will keep the tradition of the old rabbit eared gun in vogue. I also have gifted my sons several Parkers and they now have modest collections. and they are now hooked on double guns,maybe we as the PGCA needs to present a Parker to the youth shooter of the year, each year? Gary

I couldn't agree more. Engage the young by connecting them with the charm and magic of double guns. And sure. Have a little shooting fun arranged.

But... why re-introduce "competition" into the equation? Double guns are the reward, not the score.

So... why not have a simple drawing for the gun amongst the young shooters? They have to shoot, but they all have an equal chance to own an enchanting double gun. And get hooked!

I like the idea of a drawing and something for the winner and next 3 or 4 shooters.

What about starting a Parker or American classic SxS youth shooting/instruction/fun group?
There must be places where there enough Parker guys to sponsor such a thing.

This is a great discussion gents. My son Danny has been around the PGCA and double guns since he was around 9 years old. He is now a member and is 24 years old. I think Danny enjoy's the people as much as he enjoy's the guns themselves. He was given a Parker that he shoot's by a very gracious member and he cherishes it. He absolutly loves going to grouse camp and bird hunting. After the first hunt he was bitten....also he really enjoys shooting trap with our Parker SC.

All the above posts have very good points to ponder and I think its a combination of all that has been said previously. But the point I am trying to make in my above paragraph is the the great members this organiation has is a draw in itself. Danny enjoy's the life long friendships that have developed as a result of his exposure to the PGCA.

So take a young person under your wing and teach them the wonderful traditions that go along with shooting and hunting with a SxS.

In my opinion this thread is one of our best ever. Lets take this and turn it into some action. Dean, would you ask each BOD member to please read it.
I would also suggest we create a youth fund and I will seed it with $500. I would also suggest that we have three great candidates for the two open BOD seats and the runner up be asked to become our youth program director. In the Fall SXS shoot I created a team slot for a youth. It was a great hit-How about the Spring SXS? How about a Parker gun for that youth? This thread has shown the commitment of our fantastic membership for a youth program-Lets get it done NOW!
David

Dave Suponski just hit an important point. The people. You couldn't ask for a better group of folks

Dave Dwyer has a good point too. I will say I don't think we need a youth coordinator so much as we need a PGCA board and membership wide effort to bring more youths into the fold. A dedicated youth shoot sounds good, but I like the idea of having a youth space at each of our major shoots. Both Southerns have that now and it adds to the fun for all. Our membership is far and wide, so one shoot in one place will only get folks close to that event, for the most part.

All of this applies equally to lady shooters. They are an important part of our future too.

I like the idea of a youth shoot at the different SxS venues. To encourage max participation how about we have their name registered in a drawing for a nice Parker? The drawing could be held at, say, the Southern. The more shoots they participate in the more entries they get. We could even say top gun gets 5 entries, 2nd place gets 4, 3rd gets 3, etc. These shoots could easily be organized all over the country. Also, have a parker Pages column dedicated to the shoots and shooters.

Boy, I like this. Rather than giving the "best shot" the advantage, I think any kid that shoots should get one ticket to win a prize (Parker?) and once a year the tickets gathered would be used to draw a winner at the annual meeting. That way, young shooters that shoot the most would have an advantage getting a ticket at each shoot but the one time shooter could still win. It shouldn't matter what event they shoot (5-stand, sporting clays, skeet, trap,..) as long as it's with a Parker (owned or loaned). If there are enough kids showing up to shoot to compete, that's great but if only one or two show up and shoot with us, they should qualify too. The goal should be to get kids shooting, preferably a double and better yet a Parker and not competing among themselves.

The problem I see is getting shoots "recognized" by the PGCA BOD as "official approved" events AND then getting them spaced around the USA. The Southern is a good place to start. The New Years shoot, Spring shoot in RI and the shoots in PA, NY and Mich get good PGCA turnout and would work but that leaves lots of geography missed. Maybe this could also spur some more PGCA members to form informal fun shoots in AZ, TX, CA ... etc?

So what happens to the market for these guns and younger folks being interested in shooting and collecting them when the use of lead shot is banned?

Pete, let's cross that bridge IF we come to it.

Guys - all of these ideas are good ones but who's willing to pick up the ball and run with it? Who's going to volunteer to get this program off the ground and make it a viable endeavor? The BOD has asked before for people to step forward and make it all happen... there were plenty of suggestions and good ideas before but NOBODY stepped up to the plate.... There needs to be a PGCA Youth Program committee formed that will ultimately answer to the BOD but that will develop the Youth Program and run it in various areas of the country. Regional "chapters" need to be formed that will be regional only to the point that shoots and events will be simpler to organize and run if they are scaled specifically to a region. They will still operate under the auspices and direction of the PGCA.

Please don't expect the current BOD or Officers to take this on - Lord knows we all have pretty full plates as it is. The old adage that "ten percent of the people do ninety percent of the work" holds as true in the PGCA as in any other organization. We need to spread the workload out. The Youth Program just will not happen without a sufficient number of dedicated volunteers.

Oh, by the way.... this is a non-paying job, but there will be loads of "atta-boys" and good ol' back slaps. We sincerely hope that will be enough of a reward.

California is already there, the clock is ticking. My question is in response to the OP's question not what the thread evolved into.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/re...-ammo-ban.html

ATA trapshooting is another shooting hobby that takes a little jingle in your pocket to participate. When I was actively shooting in 80's and 90's shooters under 35 stood out, there were not too many of them. The NH Trap Shooting Association took some initiative to increase participation of youth shooter < 18 yrs. At the annual state championship, NH youth shooters could shoot the entire three day program for half price with all ammunition paid for by the NH Trap Shooting Association. It was a wonderful opportunity for young people. Unfortunately the number of youth shooters participating could still be counted on one hand with some fingers left over. What to do when the largest obstacle to participation was removed and still no improvement in participation?

Advertise as a public service in local newspapers and periodicals...? Public service radio ads...?

Whether for good or ill, advertising is something I know a bit about.

I’m also an incorrigible double gun man. So… here goes:

“General audience” messaging is something that I am afraid is not appropriate, nor cost-effective here.

The good news is that you already have two good channels of promotion: Parker Pages and this web site. Along with other double gun-oriented web sites.

If the type of general youth program under discussion here is to be promoted, then the BOD should agree on some parameters, goals – and then plan to address them both.

Just a bit of pure speculation:

If the “goal” is to promote youth interest in, and passion for, double barrel shotguns – including Parkers – then your audience is best focused to the one you already have. At least to start. Get PGCA members to encourage friends and family to have youngsters “come give it a try” at the next event.

Then let them spread the word about all the fun they have.

Obstacles should be minimized for young people to shoot, too. Competition and adult/peer pressure is an obstacle. Keep it “just for fun.” No pressure. Just shoot. Hit. Miss. Who cares! You want them to like the experience. And the old guns. Not fear looking stupid in the eyes of others. Remember how you felt when you were 18… or even 25? And times that by ten for the ladies.

Also… have some doubles on hand for the young people to borrow and shoot, along with kindly instruction if they wish. Parkers would be nice. But if there’s a good Fox available from a member, who cares? Free cartridges too (to a point).

At both Southern SxS, Vintagers, and other events, the promoters and host clubs can be asked to cooperate in this effort. In the end, it’s all to their benefit.

Then, every young person who shoots and “gives it a go” gets their name tossed into a hat for the gun drawing. That way, even if a 17-year-old girl doesn’t hit one target, she has fun and a chance to go home with a classic double. Who wouldn’t be a fan of shooting if they won??!! Or would come back next time and try it again.

Where do you get the guns? Donations. Or… some of our member/craftsmen might have a few “fixer uppers” lying about that could be brought back to life with little effort, and be a lifetime treasure to a youngster. I might also point out that it would be tax-deductible… and that they would get a lot of positive publicity by doing so.

I just sold my last Parker project gun, or I’d be happy donate it for starters. But I’ll keep an eye out for other pound puppies if I can find them.

This could go on ad infinitum. But something should be done to preserve the Parker/double gun world of the future for collectors, shooters, and your great grandchildren’s inheritance.

The PGCA is the perfect organization to do it too!

Get some sponsors---the gun companies, the ammo companies. They benefit as gun and ammo sales grow over the years