Food for thought
 

Many of us have read that 12-gauge guns made for 2-3/4" paper shells were chambered to 2-5/8" for a better gas seal/transition of wads from shell to bore. And of course we're aware of Sherman Bell's testing of 2-3/4" shells in short chambers. OK, check out this 1904 advert. The new 12 ga Marlin is chambered for 2-5/8" and 2-3/4" shells. Great!

So, can we infer that any 12-gauge American guns made for the early 2-5/8" paper shells were chambered to 2-1/2"?

Also, 12-gauge 2-5/8" smokeless shells were made at least into the 40's by Peters and possibly others. And why was that? What guns were they intended for? :corn:

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I'll bet Researcher can shed some light on these questions.

So then, what length shells was my 12 Ga. DH with Titanic barrels chambered at 2 9/16" made for?

"Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble."

dean the fellow who made the chamber length in your gun that day was dreaming of a 16 ga thus the 2 9/16 inch chambers...charlie

Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but the way I read that ad is that the Marlin is chambered for 2 3/4 so 2 5/8 can also be shot in it. Neat ad. Thanks.

On the small end they may have limited it to 2 5/8" because it is a pump. It may not cycle well with 2 1/2" shells.

Daryl, that's the way I read it too. My questions have to do with American factory 2-5/8" paper shells. If factory practice was to cut 2-5/8" chambers for 2-3/4" shells, then why would the factories be marketing 2-5/8" paper shells? For a 2-1/2" chamber? Were any American 12-gauge guns made with 2-1/2" chambers?

No mention of the load length in the 1905 Marlin Model 19 ad

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Back again 1913 Model 28 Marlin Repeating Shotgun

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../410244852.jpg

Stevens No. 200 20g "for any length of shell" in 1913
http://www.la84foundation.org/Sports.../SL6212020.PDF

Drew and Frank (and Dave who will probably chime in)- you guys absolutely kill me with these old ads. Thank you for the good views and information.

Good question Frank. Hopefully our info Guru Dave N. will have some input on this shell length issue.

1897 Sears listing for hulls lists none in 2 1/2" (tough to read the fine print though)
http://books.google.com/books?id=CSV...C&pg=PA546&lpg

Same with 1895 Montgomery Ward except 2 1/2" brass shells
http://books.google.com/books?id=zWe...AC&pg=PA474&vq

Just an iteration here. Let's think about this. If period American "factory practice" was to cut chambers ~1/8" short for intended paper shells - were these shells made for 2-1/2" chambers?

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This is interesting if correct; 2 1/2" 12g shells in 1927?? Unfortunately, neither the box label nor an individual shell are shown.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7595905

This listing for Ajax Heavies in the 1927 Paxton and Gallagher hardware catalog shows only 2 3/4" 12g shells
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov...talogs-part-2/

In the late 1890s and early 1900s our ammunition companies were offering smokeless powder loads up to 3 1/4 drams and 1 1/4 ounce of shot in 2 5/8 inch paper 12-gauge shells. It seems that between 1903 and 1910, 1 1/4 ounce loads in 2 5/8 inch shells disappeared from their offerings, and from then on only 1 1/8 ounce and lighter loads were offered in the 2 5/8 inch case and one had to go to 2 3/4 inch or longer 12-gauge shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads. Up to April 1940, the ATA allowed up to 1 1/4 ounce loads and lots of shooters used them. For at least 20 years Western Cartridge Co. offered a 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X Live Pigeon or Handicap Trap Lubaloy load with 1 1/4 ounce of 7 or 7 1/2. At various times both Peters and Remington offered such loads as well. I have seen some A.H. Fox Gun Co. production cards that state the customer wanted his gun chambered for 2 5/8 inch shells, but I've never had a chance to actually measure the chambers of such a gun. For those of you who are A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc. members, check the archives for the April 2011 Card of the Month, an XE-Grade two-barrel set with the long barrels ordered chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells and the shorter set for 2 5/8 inch shells.

In the days of two-piece shell boxes it seems that when the length wasn't stated on the label they were 2 5/8 inch shells, while the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch shells were identified on the label. In one-piece boxes the 2 5/8 inch are often identified.

All of our North American ammunition companies continued to offer 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells and 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shells up to WW-II, while the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells were offered into the early 1960s. Here is a 1934-39 style Remington SHUR SHOT box of 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells --

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I suspect the person who wrote the copy measured the length of the loaded shell. From this page in the 1926 Edw. K. Tryon Company catalogue states the 12-gauge AJAX HEAVIES come in a 2 3/4 inch case.

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The box on this catalogue page has the Lowell, Mass. address rather than the New York, NY on the box in the auction.

nice ammo ..i love to look at these old shells...kinda wish i had been born a little earlier in life...charlie

Here are a couple of pages from the January 2, 1942, Western Cartridge Co. price list. Note all the 12-gauge Xpert field loads on page 3 are all in 2 5/8 inch cases, but the Xpert Trap and Skeet loads on page 4 are in 2 3/4 inch cases --

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The Trap Loads being in 2 3/4 inch cases is not because of the new Super-Seal crimp, they were all 2 3/4 inch roll-crimped cases back in the 1936 price list, well before the Super-Seal crimp came out. Actually their earlier Trap Loads in the FIELD or RECORD cases were in 2 3/4 inch, or longer cases, as far back as my collection of Western Cartridge Co. paper goes.

Thicket Loads
 

That's a great term- never seen that before. Are the boxes labeled that way?