Mid Bead...Rhyme or Reason
 

Being that it has been raining for three days here in New England and my ark is in the shop I thought I would throw this out to you guys to ponder.

I took six guns that are equipped with twin beads out of the safe and measured mid bead location. And guess what.. I can,t come up with any rhyme or reason to where they are located. What do ya'll think?

VH 20ga. 14 1/4" LOP 1 3/4"DAC 3"DAH 30" barrels mid bead 15" from muzzle(now that seems to make sense)

DH 12 ga. 14 1/4"LOP 1 7/8"DAC 3"DAH 26" barrels mid bead 13 1/2"from muzzle

GHE 16ga.13 7/8"LOP 1 3/4"DAC 2 7/8"DAH 30" barrels mid bead 14 1/2" from muzzle

BH 12ga. 14 1/4" LOP 1 3/4"DAC 2 3/4"DAH 30" barrels mid bead 13 3/4" from muzzle

VHE 12ga.vent rib 14 3/4"LOP 1 1/2"DAC 2 1/2"DAH 32" inch barrels mid bead 18 3/8" from muzzle

DHE 12 gauge vent rib 14"LOP 1 1/2"DAC 2"DAH 32" barrels mid bead 14 1/2" from muzzle

So there you have it.One gun has the bead dead center in the barrel length.Two guns with the mid bead more than half the barrel length.And three guns with the mid bead less than half the barrel length.All are measured from the muzzles and all guns if it makes any difference are pistol grip guns.

Dave, if the bead is moved toward muzzle or back toward breech it will change point of impact if using the figure eight, small bead under front bead, could it be customer request, please make gun shoot half pattern high?

We all banged this around on the old forum about three years ago and data and opinions at that time were inconclusive. Bob's thoughts on POI make sense and I don't recall anyone tossing that idea out before. The diameter of the mid bead might have something to do with placement too.

Bob's ideas seem to make sense. With the exception of the vent rib guns these are I would think pretty much built for stock guns.Here's a thought: On guns with twin beads.The gun was targetted and then the center bead was marked for position depending on where they wanted the gun to shoot.I really don't knoe if the brothers P would go through the extra work.After all wouldn,t stock dimensions overide a bead?

Mid Bead-- rhyme or reason??
 

The only double I have with the mid-rib bead is the 1908 PH 16 with 26" twist barrels. It is same in color and configuration as the larger front one (yellowed ivory??)- why a mid bead on a field gun, your guess is as good as anyone else!:duck:

Not necessarily Dave. Generally speaking, the mid bead was/is the child of the competition trap and skeet shooter for more precise line-up on the target and they would usually make sure the stock fit their gun mounting dimensions first - then I would think the mid bead was added for that extra insurance. JMHO of course,

Dean,I agree and on my target guns I line up my beads and then shift my gaze to the target but we all know that to look at the bead is to miss the bird/target.

Francis,Two beads the same size? I don't recall ever seeing that.

Dave now that you have your tape out, see how close the mid beads are to 25 3/4" from the heel of the stock. That's the only common denominator I can find with a 28" Trojan and a 30" GH.

Francis, a mid bead on a field gun may have been added by someone who shot trap or skeet and simply became accustomed to twin beads on his gun. Then again, missing the target is rarely the fault of the gun - most shooters know this deep down inside even if they don't verbalize it - and once again, the mid bead, even on a field gun, was usually added for that "extra insurance".

Dave, you're certainly right about that! Concentrate on the target and let instinct do the rest. :cool:

I always thought is was a delux option...strickly cosmetic? I have a VH 20 field gun with twin ivories...it has lots of drop in the stock 2-7/8" I have to mount this gun loosly in order to see the top of the rib and sight down it. I do not think the mid bead does anything for aiming? The eye is on the target and the muzzle is a fuzz in the background. Modern pumps and autos have twin beads....how do they explain ther use or reason for being there?...One thought is way back in the day a single gun did all the work for hunting, they did not own multiple guns like we have now. Lots of old timers used the double gun to hunt deer with buckshot. squirrels sitting on a limb may need this type of sight alingment? just a thought.... SXS ohio....(-:

Let me get the digital caliper-
 

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;15027]Dean,I agree and on my target guns I line up my beads and then shift my gaze to the target but we all know that to look at the bead is to miss the bird/target.

Francis,Two beads the same size? I don't recall ever seeing that.[Me neither, Dave. Front bead mikes at 0.107", the mid bead about 1/3rd. smaller, mikes at 0.084"- yellow ivory, original to the 102 year old PH- I can't say!!

Ok.. so they are not the same size. That makes more sense..:)

Dave, To answer your question...
I would think the variables in mid bead placement on the various barrel lengths you provided probably has a lot to do with the variables of stock DAC & DAH on those same guns... A shooters head higher or lower on the stock will directly effect the mid bead dynamics in relation to how it lines up with the end bead and a distant target... Thus mid bead placement being located in a multitude of places has everything to do with the limitless combinations of DAC & DAH dimensions of your stocks... JMHO... Hope this helps...

Best, CSL
_____________________________

Chris,Thanks..I was kinda leaning this way myself and thats why I posted the stock dimensions along with the bead location. My next question would be do ya think that Parker had a formula for the location based on stock dimensions. Boy I wish sometimes I could just take a quick run over there and ask'em...:rolleyes:

I have to agree with Christopher, mid beads added by the owner to produce the usual figure 8 sight picture could be anywhere along the rib due to the differences in stock configuration and the shooters facial features. I don't think Parker Bros. could have set the mid bead position to change POI without the shooter being present due to these differences.
Off the shelf guns today typically have the mid bead at 1/2 barrel length along with an adjustable comb. The real use of the mid bead is to tell if the gun is canted when mounted,not to adjust POI.

None of my Parker Bros. doubles have twin ivories, so I've sampled some of my Ansley H. Fox doubles. I have four 32-inch guns and on three the mid-bead is exactly 16-inches from the muzzle, and the other is 18 1/4 inch from the muzzle. That gun is a very straight stocked Pigeon Gun. One 30-inch barrel gun has the mid-bead at 15-inches, two 28-inch barrel guns have the mid-beads at 14-inches, and one 26-inch barrel gun has the mid-bead 12 7/8 inches from the muzzle. Three 26-inch barrel NID model Ithaca have mid-beads 13-inch (vent rib), 14-inch and 14 3/8 inch from the muzzle, and a 30-inch vent rib NID has the mid-bead 14 1/8 inch from the muzzle. Finally I have five Browning Superposed New Model Skeets with 28-inch barrels. Four have the mid-bead 14 3/8 inch from the muzzle while my 28-gauge has the mid-bead 13 3/4 inches from the muzzle. I was shooting with a fellow at the Spokane Gun Club this forenoon who had a Pigeon Grade .410-bore New Model Skeet and his mid-bead was 13 3/4 inch from the muzzle.

So, what does any of this prove?

Twin beads and dimensions--
 

[QUOTE=Dave Noreen;15051]None of my Parker Bros. doubles have twin ivories, so I've sampled some of my Ansley H. Fox doubles. I have four 32-inch guns and on three the mid-bead is exactly 16-inches from the muzzle, and the other is 18 1/4 inch from the muzzle. That gun is a very straight stocked Pigeon Gun. One 30-inch barrel gun has the mid-bead at 15-inches, two 28-inch barrel guns have the mid-beads at 14-inches, and one 26-inch barrel gun has the mid-bead 12 7/8 inches from the muzzle. Three 26-inch barrel NID model Ithaca have mid-beads 13-inch (vent rib), 14-inch and 14 3/8 inch from the muzzle, and a 30-inch vent rib NID has the mid-bead 14 1/8 inch from the muzzle. Finally I have five Browning Superposed New Model Skeets with 28-inch barrels. Four have the mid-bead 14 3/8 inch from the muzzle while my 28-gauge has the mid-bead 13 3/4 inches from the muzzle. I was shooting with a fellow at the Spokane Gun Club this forenoon who had a Pigeon Grade .410-bore New Model Skeet and his mid-bead was 13 3/4 inch from the muzzle.

So, what does any of this prove?[ Dave- it proves to me that you have very good taste in your shotguns, and are a serious clays shooter. Wonder if there were standards for mid-bead placement for Fox, Parker, Win M21- or if it was done to customer specs??:)

Do you think the mid rib (small) bead is for more cosmetics ? / / /

















0
















0

____________________________________________

Dave,
Not sure if Parker Bros had a formula for mid-bead location based on stock dimensions, because (as Robert accurately mentioned) there are still the many fitting variables of an individuals head and facial characteristics on the stock (i.e. Fred Gilbert) that could only be determined when that particular person mounted the gun... These factors would be important if mid bead function was to make sure the shooter was looking straight down the barrel.... Personally, I think the beads are a blurred reference at best when actually swinging and shooting, but may very well help with that split-second unconscious eye to bird/target alignment... But who knows? ~ I'm looking at the bird...:)

Find your consistent mounting style on a particular gun, and with gun mounted, have your trusted assistant Danny Suponski take a large headed straight pin and move it down the rib until you see the sight picture desired (some folks like a stacked figure-8, but you do what works best for you), mark the spot making sure bead is centered on the rib side-to-side and install it... If you don't have an assistant to help, you can also use a small round ball of clay moving it up and down the rib until you get the sight picture and mid-bead location you are looking for...;)

Best, CSL
____________________________________________

Chris,Thanks for all your thoughts.I just shoot'em were they are.But being a rainy day exercise I thought we might conjur up some some good conversation and some personal thoughts on this whole mid bead location thing. I still have to believe that Parker being in the business of selling guns had to have a quick way of determining where to place that bead..

"Parker Standard" mid-bead placement on the rib as quoted from a 1929 factory spec sheet: for non-vent rib barrels up to 28 inches, bead placement @ 14 inches; for barrels 28-32 inches, bead placement @ 16 inches UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED BY ORDER. LDG Sr. cut a nifty gauge out of 1"x 1/8"x 36" that, when hung over the muzzle, "center-punched" the correct FACTORY placement of barrel beads. What criteria were used after-market is anybody's guess.

______________________________________

Dave, I Jus shoot'm too....:D
You may be right about that mid bead formula, which at the time was probably a best SWAG guess based on the stock dimensions, OR, a Parker employee who shouldered the gun before it went out the door and said "that looks good to me Wilbur, put it right there"...;)

Best, CSL
_________________________

P.S. - The gauge was cut out of lightweight aluminum stock - sort of like a Chesapeake Bay Blue Crab legal size measuring stick - you can quickly hang it over the muzzle end and it drapes right over the rib to show correct mid-bead placement. Again, this is a FACTORY SPEC. - what Junior down at the gunshop in town later on could be all over the map.

FWIW, Nash Buckingham specified the rear bead for BoWhoop to be 10-inches from the breech.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...rdfor31088.jpg

It appears that Dave Noreen's 34" Fox guns are the only ones that show any kind of consistancy in mid bead placement showing that Fox measured from the muzzle and may not have used the shooter's physical characteristics in determining where the bead should be placed.... and I don't know if that proves anything.

I don't know if we can draw any conclusions from this exercise and I have never heard of any printed material that discusses the mid bead placement and certainly all those people involved in manufacturing these old guns are long gone. Maybe if someone were to contact a modern manufacturer of double shotguns (Tony Galazan for example) we might get a better understanding.

Hmmm, Just read Kevin's post... that changes everything.

Dave, I'm guessing the tag goes with the gun being auctioned today?

____________________________________

Dean,
I didn't see where Dave Noreen mentioned anything about 34" Fox's, but he did discuss his four 32" Fox's...

As to Dave's Noreen's question "So, what does any of this prove?"... I'd say it doesn't prove much, except for the mention of his very straight stocked 32" Fox Pigeon Gun having a mid-bead 18-1/4" from the muzzle, which is 2-1/4" further in from his other 32" guns... So it could be that stocks with less DAC & DAH might have middle beads set farther back, at least that's the way it looks on his 32" Fox's, but it's hard to say without seeing all the stock dimensions...:confused:

Best, CSL
_____________________________________

Darn... typo on my part...

However, the rear bead set at 10" from breech on Buckingham's #31088 sheds an entirely different light on the discussion. I wonder what Nash Buckingham's criteria was for that request...

I have had at least two Parkers with three beads and a friend has one with three beads. Those are just the guns with three beads in line. The "Gold Hearts" gun has three beads, but the two rear ones are side by side, 29 1/2" from the muzzle, as Dave prefers to measure them. Unlike most of the gold on this gun, the beads are not mentioned in the order book.

Bill, that is probably the prototype for modern pistol sights :rolleyes:

Are you saying the two rear beads are gold too?

That's a neat gun, have you done anything in the way of refinishing it at all?

Dean the two rear beads on the "Gold Hearts" gun are gold and enormous. When shouldered, a pigeon at 26 yards will just fit in between the rear beads. Like any woman, Annie Oakley liked to have her "stuff", including her pigeons, just so. I have not shot the gun with the original 30" barrels because I haven't measured the wall thickness. I have shot the 34" Parker Special Steel barrels plenty. The gold plated Parker trigger doubles occasionally so the old girl has to come apart I guess. I have not experimented to see whether the doubling would stop if I shot heavier loads or switched the selector to "left barrel first". The refinishing consisted of the buttplate and both sets of barrels, that's it. Ken Hurst spent many hours on the buttplate, which was a rusty, pitted, throwaway until he agreed to perform his magic with the file and gravers. Bill Hambridge finished the buttplate and screws just before his disappearance. Timing is everything. The buttplate is a museum piece although Ken somehow refused to specify payment, mentioning our friendship as compensation. Oh well. Dewey Vicknair finished the 30" Damascus barrels just before he quit doing Damascus refinishing as a "price list" item. Again, timing is everything. He managed to nicely redo the Damascus barrels in black and white without removing or disturbing the gold balls. Dewey also did the 34" steel barrels, and quite a job it is, considering what he had to work with. I don't think the gun had always been stored indoors, although the wood and the steel barrels seemed to suffer very little neglect compared to other parts. Even though the entire project was the result of the work of several talented artists, I would not own the gun except for the generousity of PGCA member Daryl Middlebrook, who arranged the exchange of ownership.

Chris,I you look at my original post you will notice that the VHE 32" gun has the mid bead at 18 3/8" back. That is much further back than the other guns. And its stocked at 2 1/2"DAH. Coincidence? Who knows...

Seems one would have to be concentrating pretty hard on the beads to make a figure 8. Interesting idea but doesn't gel with the idea of NOT concentrating on the beads..... unless of course you like to miss targets.... like I do...

Dave Suponski, out of curiosity,of the guns you listed, which ones allow YOU to see a figure 8 with a normal gun mount and what are your preferred stock drop dimensions?

Bob,A gun stocked to my liking would be 14 1/2"LOP 1 1/2"DAC 2 1/2" DAH with a 1/8" or so cast off for a RH shooter. I can shoot any one of these guns pretty good as I have learned how to adjust. The two 32" trap guns with the fairly high stocks I like because I float the birds over the muzzles.

Dave, I could shoot your gun no problem. 1 1/2 DAC is right on the money for me shooting 16yd trap targets,I too like to float the target. That why some of my flatter shooting doubles give me fits at SC! Was just curious if you actually see a figure 8 with any of those stock dimensions.
I know as I raise the comb on my gun I begin to see rib between the beads.
So it stands to reason a higher comb or a longer face would require the bead be closer to the muzzle to get stacked beads. A mid bead is very functional if properly set for the shooter. Canting the gun left or right or raising the head causes the figure 8 to fall apart,it can serve as an instant gun mount check before calling for the target. :corn:

Bob,I agree. On my three trap guns I use the figure 8 to get set on the gun and then look for the target.Seems to work pretty good.Also at trap I don't go down to the house before calling for the target.I keep my mounted gun about three feet up from the house.Keeps gun movement to a minimum and I am on the target quickly.

Robert, that's my point exactly.

We rarely see Dave with a "long face" - he's usually the life of the party.:)

_____________________________
Dave,
I had a look at my 32" VHE vent/rib Trap last night and it measured very similar to yours with a little higher shooting dimensions at heel = LOP 14-1/8, DAC 1-1/2", DAH 1-3/4, and mid-bead dead on at 18" from muzzle....

Maybe if we had some other shooters here post the stock dimensions of their 32" barreled guns with bead measurement, we would see a consistent pattern with relation to stock height and mid-bead placement?... Would also be interesting to see the differences in mid-bead placement between vent/rib and standard rib same length barrels with similar stock dimensions... Just a thought, and Hope we get some feedback on this...

Best, CSL
__________________________________

After reading this entire thread a couple of times I'm not sure if there was a factory standard or not and if there was such a standard where was the measurement taken from. So far it's been suggested the measurement could be from the muzzle, from the breech, and someone suggested measuring from the butt to the bead. I checked three guns last night that letter with double beads and all three measure 18" from the muzzle. Because all three guns have different barrel lengths (26"28"30") I have to assume that it's the relationship of each bead to the other that would be the most important dimension. I like double beads for checking gun mount but find them impractical for shooting as I try to focus on the lead edge of the clay or the head of the bird when making a shot.

Do we "need" the mid-bead?
 

[QUOTE=Larry Frey;15153]After reading this entire thread a couple of times I'm not sure if there was a factory standard or not and if there was such a standard where was the measurement taken from. So far it's been suggested the measurement could be from the muzzle, from the breech, and someone suggested measuring from the butt to the bead. I checked three guns last night that letter with double beads and all three measure 18" from the muzzle. Because all three guns have different barrel lengths (26"28"30") I have to assume that it's the relationship of each bead to the other that would be the most important dimension. I like double beads for checking gun mount but find them impractical for shooting as I try to focus on the lead edge of the clay or the head of the bird when making a shot.[-

Larry, for field hunting conditions I couldn't agree more- I removed the mid-bead sights from my VR 28" Mossenburgher 835 nasty weather waterfowler, I didn't mind the VR but the little brass bead distracted me-I only want to see the birds head in focus- haven't shot the little 16 PH on clays yet, but will not remove the mid bead for any reason-

?? If you do that, will that allow moisture to "weep" into the top rib section?? I sealed the 1/16" unthreaded hole in the VR on the 835 against moisture just for that reason.:bigbye: