Parker Live Bird Gun??
 

Hi Guys and Gals: I am a new, old member, I was a member and droped out when I sold my gun collection. Now getting back into it and picked up a really interesting Parker VHE. I have all the books and they dont answer the question. I sent the serial number to the group and they dont have anything on the gun.
So here we go. VHE, 32 inch bbls. beavertail forarm. No 2 frame double triggers and NO SAFTY. Never had one as there is engaving (factory) over where it would have been. Serial #208616 so about a 1924 gun. Am I correct and this was built as a dedicated Live Bird Gun. Please opine.

Maybe! Maybe not! Could be a trap gun or just some old timer's duck gun. Many old timers didn't like a safety. Nash Buckingham had no safety on BoWhoop, and his HDE at Henry Bartholomew's estate.

Thanks for the quick reply. As there are no records for this gun I guess I will never know. I do know or believe that less than 170 something of all VH production was ordered with a Beavertail Forend. Could not find out how many of all Parkers were ordered whithout a saftey from the factory. I know many had them removed and a plug put in but this one is definitly factory ordered. Oh well, anoher mystery unsolved in my life.
Thanks again for getting back to me with your oppinion so quickly.
bruce4guns@aol.com

parker live bird gun
 

Forgive me for momentarily stealing your post but what features does a "live bird gun" have or is it just a "loose title"?

Paul, it has become a 'loose title' of late and seems to be applied to any gun without a safety. A true live bird or inanimate target competition gun or "race gun" often had other defining features as well as provenance to an early competition shooter.

All: Like the man said an overused term. But! What shoud be said is that guns with certain configurations such as long tubes (especially 32 in and over), Factory Bevertail Forearms, and especially factory configured and ordered as this one was (engraving over the area where the saftey would be) double triggers and a high stock, is more than likely a designade live bird or trap gun. While duck hunters might want a gun like this it is more than likely that it was ordered by a live bird shooter or trap shooter. They did not trust the single trigger as it doubled sometime and they did not want to worry about taking off a safty and loosing a bird because they forgot. They wanted the long barrel because it helps with swing through, the beavertail added weight up front to help with this also and to keep ones hand of a very hot barrel. The high stock helped them shoot under the bird and see it sooner. If the records existed for this gun and it was sold to a person and not a store I would bet he would be able to be found to be either a live bird shooter or a trap shooter on as most were both.

I have not seen a Parker order that specified flyer shooting as the purpose the gun would be used for. However, I have seen many orders that identify the buyer as a known competition shooter in the pigeon ring. Two other rare features that identify a "Pigeon Gun" are "no extension rib" and "flat rib". However, it is rare to find all mentioned features in the same gun.

a couple thoughts - not matured enough to be opinions

isn't 1924 a bit late for the hey day of live bird shooting?

and since it was (and is) largely a big money game to play - wouldn't someone special ordering a live bird gun likely order a higher grade than a V?


my guess is a trap gun - cheapskates that they are :rotf:

Bill: I thank you so much for your input. I am not familiar with the term "no extension rib" and am wondering if by flat rib you mean the standard rib and not a raised or ventilated rib. My gun has all the features described above in my post and a standard rib (flat?). Could you please advise if you mean standard rib when you say flat and what "no extension rib" means as I have never heard the term before does that also mean a non raised or ventilated rib?
Thanks for your knowledge. Shame I will never know who this gun was built for as the records dont exist:(

Bruce, A flat rib is exactly as Bill describes. Your gun is most likely a concave rib. No rib extention means the lack of the "Dolls head" that fit into a mortise in the top of the frame.

Mr. Osthaus: Well I don't actually agree with that completely. I have shoot boxed birds as late as two years ago. There is actually a very large world wide community of folks who still shoot "Fliers" and it is still legal in many states and outside the US in many Latin American and European Countries. It is done in a quite way and yes it is a big money game and most of the shooters shoot big money guns. Now in 1924 as now not everyone who shot boxed birds was a millionare. I imagine the Parker VHE i have cost in excess of $ 60 with the bevertail forend and ejectors and I imagine in 2015 dollars that is a lot of money for the average guy. Pigion shooting was common in every state back then and there were alot of clubs around still. Not saying your wrong, just saying it could have been a trapshooters gun or it could have belonged to a guy who did both but on a local or regional level.
That's the great thing about strange guns, absent the record of whom it was sold to, I will never know just guess.
As to the fancy shooting irons there is a very large shoot held in PA each year and the winner four or five years ago was shooting a Remington Pump Gun. Imagine that:)

Got the rib thing now. Thanks all . You are correct mine is concave and does have the dolls head.

In his book Pigeon Shooting, by Blue Rock, Capt. A.W. Money argued that 30-inch barrels were the perfect length for the ring.

The International Flyer Championship was held at Kansas City from at least 1917 to 1941.

Homer Clark, Jr. won at Madrid, Spain, in 1949, shooting a big No. 5E NID Ithaca with vent rib, beavertail and single trigger.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps50684be1.jpg

i think most will take the trap comment as the humor it was meant to be, although the Remington pump does sort of fit my point.

i know flier shoots continue and I know some here still do it- but - its not nearly as common or to the level of public exposure it was before the last century in this country- which is where a V was likely sold.

still sounds like an interesting gun- and still hope you can get some pictures up

I am sure that this and most all guns without safeties MAY have been used for shooting pigeons in a ring. Chances are however that more likely they were not. We see 20 gauge Parkers without safetys claimed to be "Live Bird Guns". Were those built for the pigeon ring or a Texas dove field?

It is more likely that a long barreled SxS side built without a safety was a completion gun for trap than for pigeons. There were certainly more clay pigeon shooters than live pigeon shooters.

Also, remember when seat belts in cars came about? How many people refused to were them? Heck, some still do not wear them and get fined for not wearing them despite the documented controlled test results and empirical evidence from traffic accident survivors in favor of the good the belts provide.

Some of those old shooters might have hated safeties as much as I hate a car that locks it doors automatically! A hundred years ago I would have been the type of SOB who ordered a gun without a safety just as I would NEVER buy a car or truck that locked its doors automatically!

Sorry to bring logic and my personal lack thereof into this discussion,
Mark

What advantage does the lack of a dolls head provide in pigeon, trap, competition shooting?

Curious....:corn:

I have a 30", VH 20, ordered in 1904 by noted Parker shooter W.R. Crosby. It was ordered without a safety and the notation "Send Bill- Compliments of Parker Brothers". It is choked IM/F. I have shot live pigeon smallbore events and this could have possibly been used for this but more than likely it was used for clays.

My TH Keller gun is a 1903 DH, PG 14"LOP, 1 1/2x 2 1/2, 7 3/4 to 8 lbs RH Full, LH Extra Full, chamber 2 3/4", no safety. From my readings the classic pigeon gun of the era was 30", 32" and higher stock dimensions became the norm as shoots turned to trap clay bird competitions. http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.p...pictureid=5153
I am not sure if I am correct---what say you?

Dave, the forend on Homer Clark's gun is the most monstrous BTFE I think I have ever seen on a SxS gun. It could be a design from one of Josef Fanzoi's three-barreled SxSxO/U guns! Our mutual friend who runs the local pigeon ring recently purchased one, BTW - at the last 2 gun shows, it achieved "Pat The Bunny" status!

Scott, It is my belief that having no dolls head speeded up the loading/unloading process in competiton guns.

Because the shooter was less likely to catch some of his own flesh or even his necktie in there when closing the gun.

I don't get how no dolls head can speed up loading. In either trap or live birds you call for the shot/bird so reloading speed would be a non issue wouldn't it?
I have a BHE with no safety, 32 inch bbls (damascuss) choked full and real full, straight stock with a high Monte Carlo comb and a splinter forearm. Is this live bird gun? Beats me I do like to shoot it though.

This is vh 20 ga.

Thanks Jeff - I see where the mortise was filled in - do we know if Parker Bros. ever made frames without the mortise at all?

Those I have seen appear to have never been cut for the doll's head, or the cut was well hidden when filled in.

My DH 12 ga. has no safety and no doll head. Even though it is engraved over, you can make out where they filled in the mortise with a loop.
My Trojan without an extension does not have a mortise.

I'm glad I don't wear a tie when I shoot:rotf: and I always wear gloves:)
My BHE has a Dolls head and I haven't lost any flesh yet...thankfully.

Toward the end of 1901, Fred Gilbert received his new Parker DH SN 103649; no dolls head, no ejectors, 32`barrels, ordered by Russia Klien in Iowa.

I do not know the dimensions of his previous BH (which was/is in the safekeeping of a PGCA member) or the new DH, but after winning the DuPont Cup in 1895 the “Fred Gilbert Specifications” were drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.

Did pretty good with the DH :) High average in both 1902 and 1903

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../382579735.jpg

Daryl: lots of information about "Tobacco Bill" Crosby about 1/2 way down here. He didn't use a Parker in competition until 1906
https://docs.google.com/a/damascuskn...iW-cpc/preview

With no dolls head you could not have ejectors, am I right?
So this would not speed loading as you would have to pick the empty's out.

Yup. Like I said.... flesh and neckties.

ok - educate me - why would that be true? there is no mechanical connect that I know of

Rick, The ends of the shell ejectors ride in a channel on the rib extention. That is why you see the screw head on the end of the dolls head rib extention on ejector guns.

But many live bird/competition guns were ordered as extractor guns. So I hold true to my original statement that the buyers didn't want the dolls head in the way.

The ejectors ride in slot cut into the underside of the doll's head and stop against a stop plate mortised into the end of the doll's head.

I just said that...As an aside. Have you ever extracted shells from an extractor gun without a dolls head? It is much easier without that infernal contraption in the way....:)

Thanks very much Drew. On page 67, my gun is mentioned exactly as it is in the research letter. Really cool.

Interesting that old time live bird shooters would order Parker Bros. doubles without a rib extension. Certainly couldn't do that with an L.C. Smith or Lefever, and I've never seen a Remington hammerless without a rib extension. A "third bite" was often a feature of English Pigeon Guns.

The third bite in British guns is not on the breech face and is not in the way of shell extraction. All "no doll's head" Parker pigeon guns are extractor guns for the reason explained by Dave Suponski.

Daryl, please explain "my gun" and "page 67". Do you own one of the guns previously owned by a famous shooter? Which shooter, which gun?

Bill, see post #17 on this thread. Click on Drew's link on post #28 and scroll down to page 67 where WR Crosby is discussed.

I guess I don't understand why speed of loading is even a consideration in shooting either trap or live birds. Can someone explain this to me?