DeCarbonized barrels
 

Does anyone have photos of what DeCarbonized barrels look like in original condition? Just curious. Does anyone do refinishing work on DeCarbonized barrels?

i dont have a gun with those kind of barrels but i know they look like the plain steel barrels parker used..they pretty much look like fluid steel barrels except more of a black finish than blue...charlie

Mills, These are from #1416 a Parker Back Action gun.

De carbed barrels on my Remingtons look no different than Vulcan steel but trend more towards black or real deep blue color. Hard to really tell on 140 + year old finish.

Thank you Scott, and I added one of your images here with an attribution
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19406549

And BTW; based on Dave's composition analysis, "Parker Steel" may well be Decarbonized/Parker Plain Steel
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...t=12593&page=4

Wasn't Decarbonized Steel also referred to as ordinance steel and wasn't it considered to be the best quality steel suitable for rifle, gun, and cannon barrels at the time?

Dean,

I don't think so. I had a Remington 10 ga hammer gun grade 1 with decarbonized barrels. The barrels had some small dents and I sold the gun when I found out how strong decarbonized steel is; the reccomendation was not to shoot it with black powder or low pressure loads but to find one that had twist or Damascus barrels. Ordinance steel is a different composition and VERY much stronger. I saw something about how strong ordinance steel is in Remington Doubles by Charles Semmer.

Jack Kuzepski

I have heard decarbonized steel is the weakest of the steels used for Parker barrels. I have one Parker with decarbonized barrels and I just have it as a collector's piece.

No. "Remington Ordnance Steel" was introduced in 1897 for the 1894 Hammerless Double and had a reported tensile strength of 110,000 psi.
"Remington Steel" used on the Model 1900 was likely similar to Winchester and Marlin "Rolled (Bessemer) Steel", with a tensile strength of 66,000 - 70,000 psi.
Bessemer/Decarbonized steel tensile strength is about 63,000 psi, similar to AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel.

I tried to use the 'Search' function for previous discussions regarding Decarbonized Steel strength, but this is all I found
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...d+steel&page=3

For comparison, the average tensile strength in my study for crolle Damascus was 54,500 psi; less than that reported for Bessemer.

To be clear, Bessemer is NOT the same as Charles Parker Makers "Gun Iron" barrels which were made from surplus Cast Steel musket barrels.

BTW: The Remington 1889 hammer gun No. 1 had decarbonized steel and was "Guaranteed For Nitro Powders"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../409493899.jpg

some good info posted here...i have a remington 1894 that has ordnance steel barrels they look a little differant than the plain steel barrels on the parkers i have...charlie

I've shot a Remington with decarbonized barrels for years. Just how strong do some of you think barrels have to be ? Isn't 63,000psi a bit more than any shotgun shell ? A Remington proof load is 17,500 - no where near 63,000.

Paul: Tensile strength is only a part of the equation for estimating bursting pressure. If the barrel is made of Decarbonized steel with a 60,000 psi tensile strength, that does NOT mean that it will withstand a 10,000 psi load by a factor of 6.

Barlow's formula P=2 S t / D
P=Bursting pressure in psi.
S=Tensile strength of material in tube wall.
t=Wall thickness in inches.
D=Outside diameter in inches.

Barlow’s, and the other formula (Alger, Boardman and Lame), refer to a pipe capped at both ends with a static pressure (a pressure cylinder). Shotgun barrels are not designed to be pressure vessels as one end is open and the pressure rises and falls quickly. I've discussed this issue with Eldon and a metallurgical engineer and there is no working formula for open end tubes.

Wallace H. Coxe, in "Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics" by E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. in 1931 published the following pressure/distance curve.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../409804775.jpg

He also cited a study in which a fluid steel barrel was cut to 9” and capped, then a series of progressively increasing pressure loads fired. The barrel cap was blown off and barrel burst at 5,600 psi.

Comment in Sporting Guns and Gunpowders regarding the Proof House Report of 1891
http://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16
"These experiments serve to show what a very large margin of strength there is in a good gun barrel, when ordinary charges are used. The (Damascus) barrels which gave way earliest under (the second phase destructive test) had withstood the strains of…about four times as great as the regulation proof; while the steel barrels (Siemens-Martin and English “Superior Barrel Steel”) were tested…with charges averaging nearly five times as much as the ordinary proof-charge.
Although the steel barrels showed the greater amount of endurance, the strength of the Damascus was so much in excess of all ordinary requirements that no fear need be felt of their giving way when the work is properly done."

Drew, thanks for the info. I don't feel Remington would have made decarbonized steel barrels if they weren't safe for at least 8 to 10,000psi and that's within what most hand loaders stick to. I stay at 7700 which is around black powder pressures.

I agree Paul. "For Nitro Powder", and we know 3 1/4 Dram/40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless with 1 1/8 oz. shot ran about 8500 psi, and that would be a light load for the era

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../406313078.jpg

are the composition of decarbonized barrels differant than damascus or twist steel...i thought they was...i m thinking plain steel of parker barrels and decarbonized barrels about the same or the same thing..just wondereing.....charlie

That is what I thought too

Decarbonized steel is not a pattern welded laminate, it is "Bessemer process homogenous wrought iron" and was sourced from Remington Arms.

Pages 503 & 504 of "The Parker Story" state that Parker changed the name to "Plain Steel" as Remington was using the name "Decarbonized" on their newly introduced Model 1873 & 1875/1876 Hammer Lifter doubles. 889 guns were made with Decarbonized Steel barrels.

From Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880 U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office "The earliest use of decarbonized steel or gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing company, of Chicopee, Massachusetts, as early as 1846. It is also stated that some time about 1848 Thomas Warner, a the Whitneyville works, incurred so much loss in the skelp-welding of iron barrels that he voluntarily substituted steel drilled barrels in his contract, making them of decarbonized steel, which was believed by him to be a novel expedient. The use of soft cast-steel was begun at Harper's Ferry about 1849. After 1873, all small-arms barrels turned out at the national armory at Springfield were made of decarbonized steel(a barrel of which will endure twice as heavy a charge as a wrought-iron barrel), Bessemer steel being used until 1878, and afterward Siemens-Martin steel."

The tensile strength is a bit more than pattern welded barrel steel, about the same as AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel, a bit less than Whitworth fluid steel, and considerable less than modern 4140 chrome moly steel.
The tensile strength could be increased by "cold rolling"; ie. Winchester Standard Ordnance “Rolled” Steel.

I have a very nice 1889 hammer Remington 1 grade with decarbonized steel. The chambers are a smidge shy of 2 3/4"...do not look cut out. Bores are very good, no pitting, dings or dents. Outside have age blemishes and blue loss still 60-70% little case color and some blemishes age. Wood is very nice with no damage, original plate and good shoot-able dimensions. I have fired target loads only but would not worry about game loads....would not try field loads unless I confirmed its strength to be up to it. SXS ohio

Ohio, I would bet dollars to donuts that over the life of your gun someone had shot just about everything in it, even magnum loads.

Drew from the information you have provided it would seem that if there is sufficient wall thickness there should be no reason to be concerned about shooting < 9000 psi loads in a gun equipped with decarbonized steel barrels.

It was interesting to see the old Remington ads with the guaranteed for nitro powders at the time.

How long were decarbonzied barrels offered by Remington or any other manufacturer, seems Parker dropped them early.

Given the choice between an attractive Damascus or Twist pattern vs. the plain black of the decarbonized steel barrels the reason that Parker Bros. dropped offering decarbonized barrels would seem obvious.

Decarbonized steel finishes to a lower sheen or polish resulting in a somewhat satin look. It is a very deep black and easily colored. I have done both Remingtons and Parkers.

Brad

I've read that Remington didn't approve of Parker using the term " decarbonized steel " barrels seeing how Remington first used it.

It is assumed the “Remington Steel” used on the K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless and (1894) Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) is similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester “(Cold) Rolled (Bessemer) Steel” with a tensile strength of about 66,000 psi..

Remington introduced Ordnance Steel for the (Model 1894) Hammerless Double in 1897. The 1902 catalog stated the Remington Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

The 1889 with Decarbonized Steel was offered until 1908.

Interestingly, Crescent "Armory Steel" (and likely also Aubrey/Meriden doubles) was Decarbonized. This ad from 1926 still lists Decarbonized Steel barrels

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../387344778.jpg

Due to the wonders of the internet :) we don't have to guess about turn-of-the-century Bulk and Dense Smokeless powder pressures. PLEASE NOTE that modern piezoelectric transducer measurements would be about 10% higher

“1895 Smokeless Powders For Shotguns”
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0...J&pg=PA446&lpg
3 1/4 Dram/40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7440 psi
3 1/4 Dram/44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 psi

The 1933 edition of ”Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the pressure for 3 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. of DuPont bulk smokeless at 9,600 psi.

The 1963 George Herter “Reloaders Handbook” lists 23 grains (3 1/4 Dr. Eq.) of “Infallible” Dense Smokeless, now Unique, with 1 1/8 oz. shot in a paper case with paper wads (card & fiber) at 8,725 psi. (Courtesy of Mark Ouellette)

Of course, only you can determine the pressures that should be used in YOUR Decarbonized Steel barrels.

From Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in the "Field" Newspaper, Relative to Firearms and Explosives, Volumes 1-2, 1897

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../411162589.jpg

'S.S.' was "Shotgun Smokeless" by the Smokeless Powder Co. (U.K.) which was eventually discarded as loads with more than 3 Dr. Eq. powder had substantially more pressure than those with "E.C." or "Schultze"

Interesting that Parker Bros. used 'Decarbonized Steel' long before any of the dates in Drew's references.... and "Remington didn't approve of Parker using the term "decarbonized steel" when PB first offered it only for their lowest grades beginning in 1869 and ending in 1873.... (according to The Parker Story)

dean i hope i get this right..so they quit useing the decarbonized steel in 1873...then they changed the name of carbon steel to plain steel which is only made in 1875 guns..do i have this corect....charlie

Gunmakers, then and now, made what would sell within a target profit margin. By 1870, Decarbonized Steel was the "new and improved" barrel material for shotguns. But Pattern Welded tubes were being produced cheaply and in great numbers in Belgium, and became the barrel material of choice for higher grade (more expensive) guns.
Sir Joseph Whitworth's adaptation of Bessemer's principle of hydraulic pressure casting was patented in 1874. The first Purdey Pair Nos. 10614 & 10615 were delivered January 1, 1880 with the "New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel", and Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887. More "new and improved" steels proliferated rapidly thereafter.

From 1897 Consular Report: Commerce, Manufactures, Etc, Volume 54
United States Bureau of Foreign Commerce
http://books.google.com/books?id=SF1...J&pg=PA526&lpg
Prices for a pair of rough forged tubes show decarbonized was much cheaper than pattern welded:
Steel................... $0.58 (3 francs)
Twist................... $1.16 (6 francs)
Oxford 3 Stripe.... $2.90 (15 francs)
Boston 2 Stripe.... $1.93 (10 francs)
4 Stripe Crolle’...... $4.825 (25 francs)
Unfortunately, I haven't found the cost for Belgian fluid steel made by Laurent Lochet-Habran or Cockerill Manufacture Liegoise

When Crescent introduced the Model 6 sidelock hammerless double in 1904 with "Armory Steel", decarbonized had obviously become the choice for utility grade guns.

decarbonized brls
 

Dean, I believe decarbonized, was used in Parkers as early as 1869, here are photos of my earliest gun ser# 029 a back action gun chambered for the 12-b shell I might have to do two post because of the large size, Gary

decarbonized brls
 

two more

You can double and triple click for really large photos, gary

That must be a very early gun Gary - no serial number engraved on the trigger guard strap.... What is the number of that gun?


Nevermind - Gary's pictures are a continuation of the previous page of this thread.

Dean, It does not have the Ser# on the trigger guard, My ser# 97 does not either, It would be interesting to hear from other members who might have early guns say below 100, Both of these guns has the ser# on the water table, and the barrel flats, and the for end wood, and every where else you would expect, but not on the trigger guard! Gary

I also have an early Back Action #1416 which also does not have the serial number engraved on the trigger guard.

Just took one in last week. No number on the guard. Serial # 57, 30" barrels. The gun is in great shape, poorly restored, but not destroyed. The first early backaction that I have seen in 14 guage.

Brad

Weren't the Meriden Manufacturing "T Latch" guns made with de carbonized barrels?

Bessemer/Decarbonized Steel is NOT the same as Charles Parker Makers "Gun Iron" barrels which were made from surplus Cast Steel musket barrels.
c. 1866, Parker offered 'Plain Finish-Iron' Barrel for $50, 'Superior Finish-Iron' Barrel for $75, and 'Laminated Steel' barrel for $100. In 1869 Decarbonized Steel was listed for the $75 grade, and in 1874 “Plain Steel”.

1866 catalog courtesy of Richard Hoover

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../325553103.jpg