VHE Trap
 

I'm looking at a VHE that is advertised as a trap gun. Other than 32" barrels and a trap forend, I see nothing to convince me that it's a factory trap model. No single trigger, no ventilated rib, no safety delete, etc. Is there a "rule of thumb" (sorry, had to ask) as to the attributes that a true factory VHE Trap would have? I probably don't have time to get a letter on it and that may not help anyway. ??? Thanks.

The true test are the stock dimensions. Shooters liked double triggers and they are more relieable than the early SST. Most trap guns had safties but they were non-auto. If the stock dimensions are 1 3/8" x 2" x 14 1/2" or close to this, I would say the gun was intended for trap use.

Mark

VHE Trap
 

Mark, thankyou. Good points. No concern with the lack of the ventilated rib?

My understanding is a "Trap" gun would be configured with; 30" or longer bbls (might have vent rib), most likley to have double beads, tight chokes, might have a BTFE, might be equipped with a SST, could be P/G or straight grip stock that is considered "high" or "straight" (not as much drop as a field gun), stock might have what is called a "full comb", safety might be non-automatic, automatic or possibly no safety at all.

Lots of owner discretion involved with a trap gun, the basics are long barrels,tight chokes, straight stocks.

What I would like; 30" barrels tight chokes but one more open than the other for shooting the first target in doubles, double beads, a BTFE (barrel heat can be uncomfortable in summer), a SST (easier for doubles), a full comb, a straight stock with about 2 1/8" DAH.

Pete, dead on, except that Rem-Parker cataloged a "Parker Double Barrel Trap Gun" which had as standard: any grade, 12ga, recoil pad, SST, beavertail forend, 30 or 32", vent rib, 14 3/8", 1 1/2DAC, 1 7/8"DAH, any grip, Monte Carlo optional, non auto safety. See Rem Parker catalog, p. 27.

But the V in question is a long way from the Double Barrel Trap. We've been through this trap gun or live bird gun issue many times with few real identifiers besides long barrels and high stock.

Bruce I believe we can/should differentiate between a "Trap" gun and a Parker "Double Trap". I saw the question as what makes a "Trap" gun. I think it is important to note that Parker purposefully built guns for trap shooting before the "Double Trap" was marketed. The gun as described is not a "Double Trap" but may indeed by a "Trap" gun.

VHE Trap
 

I'll obviously have to check these additional areas, particularly the stock dimensions. Right now all I have is a 12ga. VHE advertised as a trap model w/32" barrels, F&F, beavertail forend, straight stock,twin ivory beads, double triggers and a 1928 serial number. Thanks again.

No, you're right Pete. I was just adding to your comment, not differing with you at all. Parker made lots of guns that could be called trap guns, some could be used for anything and a few were specialized trap guns. I believe that it was not until the early 1930's that Parker made something that they actually cataloged as a trap gun yet they had obviously made trap guns for many years ( not counting the single barrel guns). Then as now, trap shooters had their individual ideas about what they wanted in a trap gun, and recalling that the national trapshooting champion for several years running shot a cheap single barrel Mod 37 Winchester.

Dennis, it may be splitting hairs, but I would not call that V a "trap model". I would call it a "trap configuration", not that it makes a hill of any difference.

VHE Trap
 

If I remember from the Parker Story (Trap Gun Section) they mentioned a trap gun being made available in 1928. ??? That date, I remember, did seem to jive with the 1928 date on this gun. (Again discounting the SBT's)

Bruce, I can certainly appreciate your point. Any gun could have been bought in any configuration for any buyer. And for that reason, perhaps the question has no real answer and anything with long barrels and a high stock is a "maybe"......end of story. ????

I just hope that when I go to sell it the buyer doesn't ask me the same questions that I'm asking you guys and the current seller.

I have VH from 1928 with 30" tight chokes, double beads. splinter foreend, p/g stock and not much drop with a nice big full comb that spreads the recoil over my cheek. Mark Conrad noted in a letter it was "trap configuration" I like shooting crows over a caller and decoys with it :)

VHE Trap
 

A letter would perhaps help me, too but I don't think I could get one before I have to commit on the purchase. Thanks.

Yes, exactly, Pete.

Now which famous gun writer was always writing that Parkers had way too much drop for him? In addition to saying that Parkers were always built too heavy?

That writer would not have liked mine, not much drop but it's 8lbs and 1 ounce on a 1 1/2 frame LOL

My first guess would be Buckingham but the Super Fox is not light, so I'll guess Foster.

Pete, Michael MacIntosh. I've always thought he never saw enough variety of Parkers before saying those things. Back in the day when people could order new Parkers to their liking they knew better.

Dennis, I hope that gun has an early enough serial number that Mark can supply a letter. There is a book missing for late '28 and '29 which precluded me from getting a letter on my CHE Double Trap #230XXX

WOW Pete!! Foster? I'm crushed... WHF loved Parkers - owned several - and was a skeet man, not trap.

Jeesh Dean why would I think a Granite State guy like Spiller or Ford would have said something disparaging about Parker. (We all know up here the MA guys (Foster) have attitude) :rotf::duck:

Figures a Fox guy would say that!

I have two double Trap guns.A VHE 32" full/full, single trigger,vent rib,beavertail,recoil pad,full comb high stock and non-auto safety and the same gun in DHE both pistol grip guns. Made in 1927 and 1928. The DHE is provenanced to a trap shooter.There is no question in my mind both guns were ordered as target guns.

But I agree with Pete wholeheartedly...Trap shooters are notorious for fooling with their guns and Parker would try to accomodate within reason.

Some day we'll probably see a Parker trap gun with a recoil reducing adjustable stock (looks like prosthetic limb) for sale on gunbroker :rotf:

Hey Dean oh Dean where are you? Seriously I hold Massachusetts in much higher esteem since the Senate race was decided :rotf:

God.... I hope not....:shock:

Ya never know Dave, remember a while back there was an otherwise nice SA trap with a ported barrel for sale on there.

Got that right Pete.I remember that gun!

...

Francis,Let me help you decipher this: Crow shooting should go in the Hunting section. While I love a Model 12 and I shoot one quite often at best this should be in the Other Fine Doubles section.Out of this whole diatribe the only thing "On Topic" is your sixth paragraph.As I am not getting any younger I really don,t want to spend the rest of my time reading diatribes.

Francisco,I you really want to "make friends and influence people" keep it short and to the point.......Please.....:rolleyes:

Actually that is one that we needed a picture of, sort of Ripley's Believe or Not Parker. LOL

Sounds as though some one might be wanting to relocate to Sans-Francisco. Sorry, I just couldn't help it!

:biglaugh:

What Constitutes a Parker Trap Gun?
 

Returning to Dennis' original query: what constitutes a Parker Trap Gun?

We credit our good friend and frequent contributor Ken Waite Jr on this.

Ken had a very nice display of Parker trap/live bird guns at the last Vintagers Concours at Sandanona. The lighting in the display area was not good, but we carried photos of the display in Parker Pages. There were straight grips pistol grips auto safeties and no safeties and several grades mixed through this display.
We carried a tabulation of dimensions and weights of guns used at a major tournament in the Iron Men series again contributed by Ken
Mark Conrad searched the archives for several names in Iron Men and did identify guns purchased by those individuals. These usually specified stock dimensions, and sometimes trigger pull; many were returned for pattern adjustment.
We have been able to examine a few guns sold by DuBray and made to measurements obtained at a shooting event. No safety, trigger pull and cast are sometimes noted in these orders. We have also had the coincidence of the availabity of a bore gauge and a DuBray ordered gun. The bore gauge read .740 and found some "different" choke tapers as noted in the most recent Parker Pages on some occassions. We do not have sufficient measurements to determine the frequency of the 740 bore in DuBray competitor orders.

The sum of all this is that there is no physical feature that uniquely identifies a Parker trap gun. This takes us to the accompanying thread. What type of provenance significantly ties a Parker gun to a competitive event?

Best, Austin

One of the features Mark noted for my gun that was ordered in "Trap Configuration" was 2 5/8" chambers were specified. This was my first research letter where chamber length was mentioned. Again the gun is from 1928. I am guessing that 2 3/4" 12ga was available at that time but had not become standard and the person ordering the gun wanted shorter chambers for performance reasons or planned to shoot 2 5/8" loads.

Chamber length for awhile was another variable for "trap" guns or so it appears.

A 1928 12 gauge gun with 2 5/8" chambers was not likely to have been chambered that way to shoot 2 5/8" shells.

trap guns
 

Bill; did you consider that there may have been competition shooters that preferred a lighter load?

Best, Austin

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;14708]Francis,Let me help you decipher this: Crow shooting should go in the Hunting section. While I love a Model 12 and I shoot one quite often at best this should be in the Other Fine Doubles section.Out of this whole diatribe the only thing "On Topic" is your sixth paragraph.As I am not getting any younger I really don,t want to spend the rest of my time reading diatribes.

Francisco,I you really want to "make friends and influence people" keep it short and to the point.......Please.....:rolleyes:[- Thanks David- I respect brother machinists like I respect brother Veterans, no matter their branch of service. And as at one time there was a SKI on the tag end of my surname, advise from a brother Pollack/Pollock?? is also always welcome. My bad, I guess. When Pete Lester mentioned blasting crows with his Parker Trap gun, I got "carried away" figured he was another fellow member of the brotherhood-as is Morris Baker--

I love to shoot crows with double guns and M12's, but will not mention either one again on the PGCA unless someone directly invites me to do so- Fair Enough??:duck:

Fair enough Francis.You are one of the"Characters" that make this forum what it is.This is just my opinion but I really think that if you keep your replys on topic without all the vague referrences that everyone will enjoy your company much more. Sooooo when you catch yourself "rambling"....well you know..:rolleyes:

You must be hell on the keyboard. It would take me a week to post some of those replys....now back to "Trap Guns"

and I still enjoy shooting crows over decoys and a caller with my "Trap" gun, got 8 of them this afternoon in Maine :p

Ya know Pete somehow this is all your fault.......:nono:

My trap gun is a DHE on a 1 1/2 frame. 30 inch vent rib, SST, BTF, M/F to a Hawkins pad. I like shooting 5 stand with it:), come to think of it thats all I have ever shot with it:duck:

How's that Suponski, short and to the point:bigbye:?

Dave with an SKI on the end of his name has really been helpful to me in regard to some PM questions I have ask him about......but several posts ago I admitted that I really wanted to learn all I could about Parkers and I'm sure seldom knowledgeable enough to give good qualified information about that subject, but I have figured out tonight that you northern boys don't hold back. Maybe that's lesson #2, a southern boy just can't get too distressed about what is said, back and forth, because it comes out just like you think it.

Perfect Rich...

Mike,Whats that old saying ?...."Discretion is the better part of valor"...Not always...

If Only Pete had been shooting "Bustards" maybe
 

- Naw- Dave- you are right. Like some folks who get long in years, I am "long winded" one of my many faults I will confess. But those few who really know me well would tell you that my loyalty towards my friends is unsurpassed (Semper Fi nonwithstanding)- and as I consider you and Dean and others on the PGCA to be friends, I plan to take your considered advice. I'm not here to annoy, if I come across that way, it is unintentional on my end anyway. I guess the computer is such a new novelty for me that sometimes I get carried away. So your words of wisdom will be heeded-:bigbye:

Austin, some shooters may well prefer light loads, but I wouldn't think that anyone would order a trap gun and be restricted to such loads. As we all know, Parker Brothers bored 2 5/8" chambers for 2 3/4" shells as a standard procedure, confirmed by factory specifications and hang tags.