DelGrego Restoration
 

I know high percentage factory original finish is the most valuable, but where would an unfired Delgrego restoration from the 70's fall in the value scale of small bore Parkers? More than a 0% case color original gun? More than a 30% case gun? Its really hard for me to come up with a value on a gun like this.

Gregg, do you have any pictures you can show us of the frame showing case color and some pics of the rest of the gun?

A Delgrego restored gun should be looked at no different than any other restored gun in respect to value. It is a restored gun.

In my opinion, there is no value "boost" because it was worked on by Delgrego.

Any people also have differing opinions on where a restored gun would fall on a percentage/condition scale. Some say a completely restored gun to like new condition should be looked at as more of an 80% condition gun, and others say 50%. I tend to not agree with the figure of half.

If restored means new case colors, the issue will be whether it was done with the proper technique and looks like an original. Cyanide case colors are often done in gaudy tiger stripes and do not look like originals.

If restored means a new stock, the issue will be whether the new stock is correct in all respects of comb nose angle and fluting, not overly thick, the wood to metal fit is correct, and the finish is right. Some restored stocks are apparent from several feet away. Some are finished with spray can varnish. Some have recut checkering with overruns and different depths.

The more the restoration departs from a high condition original, the less the value in my opinion. Some restorations are so expertly done that they have and continue to pass for high condition originals and have brought top value. Some years back I posted here photos of a restored G 20 that sold for $ 24,000. Many here on this forum claimed that it was the most outstanding Parker they had seen, and it is a gorgeous gun. There are other examples of restored high grade and rare guns that have sold comparable to original guns.

If restored means to return to the way the gun came from the factory, most restorations fall short and are more reconstructions than restorations.

A gun being restored, in my opinion, should be brought back to appearing as 'exactly' as it had originally left the factory. Some shops do not do this. They haven't paid close enough attention to every little nuance of a high condition original of the same grade and time period. Some of these shops don't care enough about this aspect of 'restoration' and figure if it is new looking, nothing else matters very much. They sometimes get the checkering wrong and if a gun is being restocked, the shape and the 'nose of the comb' are often wrong, the case colors, whether cyanide or bone charcoal are often wrong and look nothing like the original of the period.

There's a lot that goes into proper, period correct, restoration and there are scant few shops that can do it right.
For these reasons, it is my opinion that the value of a Parker can be significantly elevated by restoration and, on the other hand, the value of a Parker can be severely diminished by a "restoration".

If "small bore Parker" means a VH 28, for example, I would think that a minty Del Grego restoration from the seventies would sell for about the same price as a clean, unmolested original with 0% to 10% case colors.

I'm largely in agreement with what Brian and Bruce have said. I have never been a fan of DelGrego's case colors, and wood finishes. However, in fairness to them, they are perhaps closer to what Remington guns from Illion may have looked like when new, but certainly not what guns made in Meriden looked like. Also, I have seen even less appealing work done by others. Bruce's description of tiger stripes, to me is outright garish. As for barrel refinishes, their work is respectable, but then, so is that of many other gunsmiths who do not limit themselves to hammerless guns, or steel barrels.
I have seen many great hammer gun restorations, dozens of beautifully refinished damascus barrels, and beautiful stock work. What's it's true value is, I can't say, but I am in the final lap of a hammer gun remake, which has new wood, new barrel finish, and new case colors. It started down that road simply because it needed new wood. Then it's a question of where do you stop?
Sadly, many "restored guns" owed no one an apology for their condition. I've said it before; It can only be original once, but it can be restored over and over.

I want to be clear that I have not and will not specifically identify with criticism any one gunsmith.

Tiger striped cyanide case colors are not necessarily a result of using the cyanide case hardening process. Rather, it is a result of multiple dipping into the liquid bath which leaves succeeding waves of color.

Ilion made Parkers with cyanide colors are brighter than Meriden charcoal colors but do not have striped waves of color.

A 1939 Ilion gun:

I'd place more value on DelGrego's work than an anonymous gunsmith's work.

I've had work done by DelGego at a premium for the simple fact that I was paying for the knowledge they would not screw the gun up worse than when I sent it.

That's not to say they are unsurpassed in quality, but rather they offer a known level of quality that can be counted on.

Gunsinternational #100506293 is a current example (though not a Del Grego example) that speaks to the issue discussed herein. I don't know how to post a link and offer the reference as collaborative evidence only not to foster a sale.
James

I believe many people and gun shops place a premium on a restoration of a Parker was done by Larry Del Grego & Sons due to the family connection to Parker Bros and Remington (provided there is proof of their work). The value depends on the buyer. There are people on here that know better than I the history of this shop. Over the years they took many artistic liberties if you will, such as creating Skeet Guns from ordinary guns, putting BTFE's on guns that did not have them etc. In my mind the guns restored by this shop stand on their own merits as restorations and alterations. Some people like them and others don't. I do recall being told from a VERY reliable source that back in the day the recasing of receivers was done by Remington and it was a cyanide process. I was told the prep work was done in the Del Grego shop and the receivers were taken to the plant in a lunch box to be case colored, friends helping friends as they say.

Bruce, I'm not sure anyone assumed you were criticizing DelGrego, or anyone else. When I say I do not care for someone's work, I'm expressing my opinion, and I think there is a difference.
The example you show is a nice example of cyanide colors and not what I'm used to seeing identified with DelGrego.

Sometimes restoration tastefully done can be a good thing. This DH was in very poor condition. I had it redone by Bachelder and feel as though it has been given a new lease on life. Most folks wouldn't have bothered with trying to rescue and save such a three-legged dog but I did and am happy with the results.

Here's a link to the album showing the finished product:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=521

John, a nice gun done right and with enhanced value in my opinion.

If you can keep it above water level and creek flow there in Mill Valley.

Bruce, thankfully we're up on top of Strawberry Hill and well above the water (although we can see the bay from our house). Still, every frog within a hundred miles of us has now officially drowned.

I will elaborate on my original statement and also on what others have said.

Obviously how close the restoration work is to factory finishes is the major factor in calling something a "quality restoration" and trying to assign a value to it.

In my opinion, due to DelGrego's use of such things as striped cyanide colors, white line recoil pads and beaded checkering borders puts them far away from a close to factory appearance. You can spot a Delgrego restored gun very easily. The name may carry some clout with it, but the proof is in the pudding.

Here is an example of Turnbull's case colors. It was colored prior to me buying the gun. It's not on par with original colors, but it's not bad.

In the vintage market (i.e. furniture) it has most always been unquestioned that unrestored is valued above even the best of restorations. The one exception to this until the last decade was rare automobiles, but now the market has moved to placing a very high premium on unrestored cars that have just been brought back mechanically.

I have only restored two Parkers. One was the first Parker I bought, late VHE 20 that had great wood, but someone had blued the case along with the barrels! yes, and I was dumb enough to buy it. Collecting Parkers has certainly been a learning process and joining this association reading these blogs most every day I am home was as valuable as buying "the Parker Story" and a few other books on the subject.

Anyway, I really had to restore the 20, as I now know hot bluing weakens the parts-and looks like, well a 21...DelGrego did the full restoration and opened the chokes from F/F to IC/ M to use as on sporting clays. I would never change the chokes, but this is go-to gun and it is what it is. The restoration price was high and he did not do the butt-plate. It looks very good but my only criticism is that the fore end latch is just a bit proud. He offered to fix it but, I never bothered to send it back.

The second gun was a 10 gauge grade two Hammer that Brad now has that was covered with Linseed oil and I just wanted to see the nice Damascus pattern pop. I lucked out in that it had very little use and no cracks in the stock.

The rest of my small collection are unrestored Parkers and most are a bit worn, but they all tell a story. The high condition ones cost a lot, as I started on this road a bit later than most collectors.

One last comment- How do you value a documented Parker factory restoration? To me that is an original gun.

"Not on a par with originals..."
Really ?

Top is your V re-case colored , bottom is my Quality 4 original.

I'd like to be able to point out lots of differences, but.......


As for unrestored cars that have just been brought back mechanically, those of you who know my 21 year old Suburban with 260,000 miles and some fender and rocker panel rust, that is exactly what I have done. Those of you who have put down my old beater, and you know who you are, eat your words. I have just been ahead of my time.

Patrick, I will address two of your situations. First, buying a blued Parker is not a mistake. Someone has to own it and you have the initiative to restore it, so there is no mistake. I own two blued Parkers and both are valuable guns and neither have been restored to color. Second point is your question about documented factory restorations. One point is that such guns are not numerous. Another point is that most of them have been used a bunch since the refinish, so value is kind of a tossup about when the wear occurred. Remington repair codes are another form of "kind of documented" refinish. Remington colors on Parker Brothers guns, accompanied by Remington repair codes, is known as a clue. In answer to your question, if the gun is in nice shape, and you can document the refinish, it would be considered almost original. One example is my DH 12 gauge mid twenties 29" barrel gun, complete with full Remington style refinish AND Remington repair codes. Of course, this rare gun would be worth a bunch in mint original condition. However, what is it worth the way it sits, almost mint with factory 29" barrels and Remington repair codes? A bunch.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I once had a CHE Double Trap made in 1929. It was an exceptionally nice gun but it had Remington repair codes, a 'Remingtonesque' splinter forend (almost the same width from one end to the other) recut checkering with the Remington-style borders on the forend as well as the grip, and cyanide case colors (but nicely done, not tiger-striped). All in all it was a very nice Parker and, though redone by Remington well after the Meriden days, I considered it factory work.

Value on this gun?...... I sold it for a PILE more than I paid for it.

Value is determined by the agreement between seller and buyer. I would rather have a nice original gun that shows it's age gracefully than a refinished gun that looks factory new. I have had stocks and Damascus barrels refinished to either bring out the pattern in the barrels or take 100 years of dirt and oil build up out of the stock. I have a CHE Damascus 20 that the barrels fairly shine and have considered having them redone but as they say "it's only original once" and I have decided to leave them as is.
At the end of the day the value is what your willing to pay for it and if you like it than that's what counts.

2 cents worth... Just like anything , if at any time a particular item becomes "the thing to have" and the availability is outweighed by the demand then the price tag and collectability will follow no matter what the beliefs of the past may have been.. Think back on what you "could have bought" and at what price.. I guess diversity in the old gun safe portfolio isn't always a bad thing, and speculation is what it is, because the prices very seldom drop and you never know when the old dust collector might be tomorrows fad.. People bought pet "Rocks" at an astounding rate for Gods sake..

Last year I looked at a Twist barreled PH 12g. that a gentleman I know had recently acquired. It was built in the early 1890's and had exceptional metal finishes (95%), but a little more wear to the wood and wood finish. And the Case colors were not of what would be seen on a 1890's gun. More like what would be on a gun built in the 1920's. Closer inspection showed a 1910 type wear plate installed in it which pointed to the fact that the gun had been back to the factory at some time after that point. I concluded that the gun had to have been re-case colored and barrels re-blackened by Parker when it was returned.

So, it was a factory refinished gun. Like Bill stated, I would lean more towards considering it to be an original gun.
But I will tell you what, it was a PERFECT example of what Parker factory finishes looked like. And there was no mistaking that they were factory finishes.

You are right there are fads. I knew Gary Dahl (Pet Rock) in Los Gatos, CA and he laughed all the way to the bank...

However, I do believe that the movement from restored to original objects will continue and as an investment an original high-grade SXS like Parker is the way to go. Given the fact that anyone can have a well-worn Parker fully restored for say $3,000, there tens of thousands that could be produced.

I agree that demand is fickle, but price always reflects demand and the number for sale. I do remember a recent comment from DelGrego that his three generations have worked on 60,000 Parker guns. Given that many Parkers you wonder how many have been passed as original by other individuals, especially as DelGrego Sr. had the original Parker parts to work with...

Regarding Parkers as an investment, I plan to keep most of mine, but I'm, like many members, well over 65 and I wonder if in the next 10-20 years James Julia and the like will have a lot of great high-grade original Parkers (you know, the ones we never sell) at auction?

Back to the price equation of demand and numbers, what if the next two generations have much less interest in these incredible guns? When I shoot sporting clays, all you see are autos, nice U/O and I'm asked, is that a reproduction? Perhaps Parkers will be a long-term fad. I sincerely hope not.

Patrick

Trust me... The Delgrego shop has not seen 60,000 Parkers.

And, no gun with the typical striped Cyanide case colors will pass as an original gun.

Look at the "Centennial Parker" that Gary Carmichael had restored. That gun is worth more after resto than it was before it was sent out. Restoring to enhance value can be a tricky call though. Low grade guns of little collector value probably can bring more on the market at large than the same gun that shows 100 years of wear and tear. That being said, a low grade resto probably won't sell for what the total investment was to bring it back. Picture two 30" PH 12 gauges side by side on a dealers table. One has a hundred plus years of original "patina" and the other is a quality resto. Neither have collector value but the resto will probably bring a little more from the shooter market.

Yes, that is a huge number, even given the some 60 years they have been in business.

However, it was just an off-hand phone remark that I probably should not have passed on. OK, strike probably.

Patrick

Adding to this thought, I suspect when the day comes that lead shot is banned demand and price for classic doubles will fall off a cliff for all but the high condition high grade guns and even those may be effected.

Ok.. just one more cent.. When a restorers name is featured in the "Parker Story" and has an interview on CNN and is the title of this thread I have got to say it will and is used as a selling feature (just watch an online gun site) and whether we like it or not does affect price.. Is it still a restored piece.. Yes.. But does "Joes gun restorations down the street" ever appear in a description or in a publication.. Nope... The others are either a Turnbull, or a "well done restoration".. I have to say I love em all and have no bias to ones choice.. Look on the bright side, its pretty damn hard to butcher "Joes Restoration..

"Using" a gunsmith's name to sell a gun is a no brainer. His name is part of the history of the gun. When I sell a gun that has been worked on, I include all the paperwork at my disposal in the sale. I'm not ashamed of the work done on one of my guns, good or bad.