Parker 13 gauge?
 

I was just wondering if anyone knows if all the 13 gauge Parker uplifter action shotguns have been accounted for. I don't have a bore gauge, nor can I locate one, but according to my most precise measurements, the bore on my gun appears to be just a shade over 18 mm. This is measured at the end of the barrel--should it be further up into the barrel? The gun has 30 1/4" barrels and the serial number is N 0968. It was patented in Nov. of 1866. Any possibility this could be a 13? Thanks!

13 gauge?
 

I guess I must have asked a really dumb question based on the number (or lack of) replies. Please bear with me--I have been an avid sportsman all my life, but this is the first Parker of any kind I have ever run across. I'm just trying to gather as much information as possible. If I ask dumb or rhetorical questions, please let me know! I don't mind being set straight. Thanks! Jack.

jack i can t answer your question but there are some who can they will pitch in shortly.by the way congratulations on that parker what ever gauge it is...charlie

I find no listing for a 13 gauge gun produced by Parker Bros.

14 gauge, yes, but no 13 gauge listed that I could find.

Thanks so much, Charlie--I fell in love with it when I saw it, although I doubt I'll ever shoot it!

13 gauge
 

Thank you Dean,
I was just going by a post about a possible 13 gauge on this forum posted on 2/19/13 (p.5) about this same gun. Apparently somebody else was looking at this gun before I bought it.


"The Parker Story on page 257 list the Grade 0 Lifter-Action Decarbonized Steel guns as being in 10, 11, 12, and 13 gauges. Only 4 13 gauges made, 3 of them were 30". No 14s. Just going by that." Quote by the author of this post.

This doesn't sound right, either, because I also read in my earlier post (2/25/13) that over 100 14 gauges were made, except with higher serial numbers. (At least, I think that's what I read......I'm sooooooooo confused!!!

I seem to remember that a few 13 gauges were made, but none have been found lately. If what you have is a 13 gauge, you really have a rare piece.

I'm sure hoping so, but not getting too excited because of possible flaws in my measurements. As soon as some of this $%#& snow gets off the ground, I'm going to try (again) to find someone who can accurately determine the gauge.
Thanks so much for your input! Jack.

Jack, You will need to get good measurements of the chambers.

Here is a video in which Larry shows how to measure a 11 gauge chamber so he can make custom brass shells to shoot. It would be a good guide to find out what gauge you have. He measures the chamber at about 3:40 into the video. I hope this help.

:corn:

I agree, Dave, and I don't have the instruments to do so. Hopefully, someone around here will, but I live in a rural area and bore gauges are few and far between! Thanks!

[QUOTE=Robin Lewis;132674]Here is a video in which Larry shows how to measure a 11 gauge chamber so he can make custom brass shells to shoot. It would be a good guide to find out what gauge you have. He measures the chamber at about 3:40 into the video. I hope this help.

Very interesting video, Robin. Yes, this helps tremendously! I'm just wondering if a cast of the chamber is necessary rather than a direct measurement, although I suppose that would be rather difficult and prone to error. With the cast, you can take a direct measurement and be assured your results are accurate and repeatable.

Jack, I think your first step would be to try to load a new unfired 12ga shell in the chamber. If it fits easily, then problem solved. If it's very tight, then further accurate measuring is required.

By it's age, the gun was made for use with brass shells and if you intend to use a 12 ga. shell to determine if it is a 12 ga. gun you should try a 12 ga. brass shell.

I'm not a shell person but I seem to remember that there were two 12 gauge brass shells. I don't remember the designations used? Maybe someone could "remind" me and inform others?

Thanks, Dave. I have tried both a 12 and a 16 ga. shell in the gun. A 12 gauge will not fit into the chamber (shell is too large), and a 16 gauge (to the best of my recollection--it's been a while!) falls right through the barrel.
Do you think it would be possible to find a dowel or piece of plastic pipe that fit snugly into the chamber (without getting stuck!) and then measure that instead of making a casting---I'm a little nervous about attempting the casting process!

Thanks, Dave. I have tried both a 12 and a 16 ga. shell in the gun. A 12 gauge will not fit into the chamber (shell is too large), and a 16 gauge (to the best of my recollection--it's been a while!) falls right through the barrel.
Do you think it would be possible to find a dowel or piece of plastic pipe that fit snugly into the chamber (without getting stuck!) and then measure that instead of making a casting---I'm a little nervous about attempting the casting process!

P.S.By very tight, you mean that a 12 ga. will actually fit into the chamber, except very tightly? One will not even start into the chamber on this gun. Maybe it is a 14 ga. after all! BTW, a penny is almost the same size as the chamber at the end of the barrel..only the penny is a few hundredths too big. If placed in the chamber, about half of the penny will rest inside and the other half will protrude. The Redbook lists the diameter of a penny as 19 mm.

A brand new 2013 penny measures exactly .751" in four different locations across its diameter.

Cast with candle wax. It will be soft so working with it may be difficult to get an accurate measurement?

Thanks Dean--excellent point! I just dug out an old Winchester brass 12 gauge and tried it. It's close, but it will NOT go into the chamber at all.

I thought of that too, Robin, but I was worried about chamber damage and the wax getting stuck. I don't think chamber damage would be an issue, though--I know of several people who "wax" the outside of their firearms rather than oil them.

Thank you (again!) Dean. If my figures are right, a 12 gauge measures .729", a 13 ga.--.700, and a 14 ga.--.693, so a few hundredths less than .751" could be a 13 OR 14 gauge, since the 12 ga. brass was too large (.729) What diameter is a 12b that I read about in one of the posts? Is this a possibility for this gun?

Jack, you're confusing 'nominal bore diameters' with chamber diameters. The chamber diameter (slightly tapered) will (almost) always be larger than the bore diameter. The diameters you show are nominal bore diameters.

Ok, first, on the faceof it, I was wrong about trying a modern 12ga shell in an early Parker gun, Dean is correct, but also, so is Robin. At the time of this early gun there was brass shells marked A & B. According to The Parker Story, at about 1870 the A & B shells appeared on the market. The "A" shell was for use in chambers sized for paper shells of the time. Paper had thicker walls so also a larger outside diameter. Then, shells for earlier guns that were chambered originally for brass shells, were marked with a "B". TPS also states in an undated chart that 12ga had tapered chambers from .811 to .797. FWIW, I believe this size corresponds to size of modern 12ga shells. This size would also be the "B" size shell, as the "12A" was a larger diameter matching the overall paper shell of the time. Confused yet? So, I still think you can try a modern unfired 12ga shell to help make a determination of what you have. If the gun is a 13ga, then the chamber will be smaller, and the 12ga shell won't fit.

Yeah...I'm so confused at this point I think I will just wait until I can get a reliable gunsmith to take measurements for me and come up with a definitive answer. I'm just such an impatient person that I think I can get answers to everything "right now". I guess I'm going to have to learn to be a little more patient!

You're doing good, Jack. Sorry I type so slow, a lot of posts while I was hunting and pecking. Dean is simply stating that the muzzle size has nothing to do with gauge. It's all in the chambered shell.

Thanks so much for sticking with me, Dave! As I was telling Dean, as impatient as I am, I think I'm just going to have to wait and find a gunsmith who can make a gauge determination for me, even if it means waiting a while!

13 gauge-one last try!
 

One final try! I didn't make a mold, but I sanded down a plastic tube and then smoothed the surface. It now goes easily into the chamber where the shell fits and then slides very snugly through the entire length of the barrel. So snugly in fact, it takes a moderate amount of pressure on a dowel rod to push the tube through the barrel, although it loosens up at the very end (choke?). If I were to accurately measure the diameter of this snugly fitting tube,(I think the tube is pretty uniform in diameter) would this be pretty close to a true bore diameter? I don't have a caliper (that I can find!), but rough measurements with a ruler read +/- 18 cm. If anyone thinks this would be an accurate enough method, I will try and locate a good caliper and get a more accurate reading. Thanks for your patience and ALL your help!!!

First, bore is measured in inches. 18 millimeters is .709 inch. I don't know what that means, except it's probably smaller than a 12ga gun. Accurate bore and chamber dimensions will have to be taken with a gage that can measure in thousanths of an inch.

According to Circle Fly, 13ga. is .710" Since I can't find any published dimensions for Chambers, I'd be more inclined to rely on the info that is published, i.e., Bore dimensions.
I applaud your enthusiasm, and know well what you mean by being impatient, but using dowels, sanded PVC pipes, etc, to attempt to find something that is measured in .001" is akin to using binoculars, when a microscope is called for.

Why don't you let us know where you live, and perhaps you might find a PGCA member close by who owns a Chubb, or similar bore gauge. I have one, and live in N.Central CT.

Thanks again, Dave. I was just using centimeters because they're easier to read on a ruler than trying to figure out hundredths or thousandths of an inch on the ruler. Obviously, the ruler is not an accurate enough measurement. I was just using what I had for a rough guesstimate until I can find something else. Thanks for all your help! Jack.

Jack, Sounds like you have what is known as a 12b brass shell gun, a lot of early guns were chambered for them, and yes they made 13 gauge guns, 4 of them to be exact, as per the remaining records but several thousand numbers away from your gun, I have been looking for one for a loooong time, that will letter as such, I am a patient man, and eventually find one, Gary

Thanks, Dave--that's what it's going to take!

Thanks, Gary. Does that mean that a regular 12 gauge Winchester brass shell, would not go into the gun, as I mentioned in an earlier post?
I know it sounds goofy, but I sanded down a plastic piece until it passed easily into the shell chamber, but fit very snugly beyond that point. I then carefully pushed it through the barrel and extracted it . I took it to the local gun shop, and he got a measurement of .724" on an electronic caliper. What that means, I don't know because of many possible mistakes on my end, but if the figure is anywhere near accurate, it sounds more like a 12b than a 13. I'm just going to have to find someone with a bore gauge if that's the proper term.
Thanks so much for your input! Jack.

Thanks, Edgar. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm cooped up here due to snow and cold and can't get out much. I guess the old cabin fever has struck
I live in Palmyra, Virginia, about 20 miles southeast of Charlottesville. There's a guy at Woodbrook Sports in Charlottesville who has a bore gauge, but everytime I stop by there, he's gone, and no one else knows where the gauge is!


P.S.--the pvc pipe test measured .724" on an electronic caliper, but probably not very accurate on my end of the measurement

Accounting for friction, and that you were able to push it through, it's sounding more like a 12 than a 13.
There are a lot of PGCA members in your neck of the woods.

Right--I think a "regular" 12 measures .729" or so.

P.S. If there are any PGCA members near me with a bore gauge, I will be happy to come to you--just reply to this thread or send me a PM and THANKS!!!


PPS-- I'm so confident in my methodology and measuring ability that once a bore gauge is employed, I'm willing to bet that my calculations are no more than an inch off! Just kidding!!!

Wow--you guys are awesome!!! I just noticed that the total number of replies is up to 36 (just a few of them mine) replies in just about two days! I am amazed at how all of you have stepped up to the plate to help a novice who at times must sound like a lunatic! Anyway, a BIG thanks to each and every one of you, and if you think of something else, keep 'em coming! Jack.

brownells sells bore gauges, buying one would solve this problem and you will be able to check other guns before you buy them.

Thanks, Paul. I definitely am considering that, but I don't normally buy antique guns. I just happened to see this one in a pawn shop and it appealed to me. I doubt I will ever be buying another unknown gauge, but then again, who knows!
I appreciate your help!