60947 Fires it's last shot
 

60947 is a grade 2 hammerless 10 ga. 1890. Due to the shortage of
Clays powder I was testing a new load using IMR 7625. I got the load date from John Shanafelt's "Reloading For The Short Ten Gauge". It was 28.5 grains with a psi of 6820, in short a light load. It had a bit more kick than my clays load. On the 13th shot, low 4, I heard a loud boom and felt an impact on my hat and shooting glasses that had me seeing stars. Gun has been fires about 1500 to 2000 round by me with no problems just one of those things. There was a hidden crack in the left barrel chamber just under the rib if I can get these pictures attached you can see it. It was my first and only hammerless (the rest have hammers) and will be missed.
Now to the main question I want to make sure the other guns I have are safe ie no cracks, any and all suggestions are very, very welcome.

The fact that you also cracked the stock in two suggests something other than a light load. Maybe 28.5 x 2?

Yikes. Glad you only saw stars.
Erick

Mr. Yeatts as I have recently have had a handgun blow up on me. I send my deepest sympathies and hope that you are ok. This is the first evidence I have seen of damascus barrels blowing up. I can not see the crack that you are talking about. I would get these barrels to a metallurgist to examine the failure. There was a large amount of plastic deformation before failure which is good and it does not appear that there was any failure along the welds.

No fishtail it was 28x1. While I use a PW for loading these were hand loaded. Could not seat the wad on a double.
There were no breaks along the welds. The crack is at the start of the chamber where the extractor channel is bored. Discussed it with Pfrommer and he showed me a modern 20 with almost the exact damage.

[David: Just count yourself VERY LUCKYthat you didn't lose a hand, an eye or a head.

Best Regards, George

You are one lucky fellow to not have sustained bodily harm from that one! 28.5grs of 7625 is a pretty light load. When I was 14 I was handloading 2.25" loads for a stout, or so it seemed, family VH12 and thinning the sparrow flocks around our farm when one shot rung my ears good. When I looked the top rib had separated from the bbls for about 2.5" down each side and opened up the breech a tad. Likely my first hearing loss incident. My brother still has the gun. It's never been repaired and is likely not worth repairing since it needs a butt stock also. I'd like to suggest parting it out at some point.

YIKES!
David, in your second photo, is the chamber actually that distorted or is that camera distortion?
I've seen rifle stocks blown out at the magazine well from ruptured cases or catastrophic failure, but your stock is cracked right thru the wrist several inches from the rupture. Did that happen at the instant of rupture or was the gun thrown from your hands and hit the ground?

Thankfully you were not injured!

It almost looks like the dolls head rib screw had something to do with it maybe drilled into that chamber to far .

David,
Had you checked the chambers/bores after the 12th shot for any blockage ? Glad you are ok !

I'm no expert ,not by a longshot and could very well be totally off base ,I'm just thinking out loud ...but that was no regular load or firing of a regular load ,that chamber metal would not have stretched like that , escaping gas is going to take the path of least resistance ,ie: a "cardboard" tube on a firework is loaded up with blackpowder ,but don't blow up ,it shoots out the open less resisted end ....a close examination of the case head if you have it may give a clue ...in my opinion the "crack " may have well saved you from more serious injury,it seems to have directed the blow upwards.

Very odd place for a crack too ?.

My guess is an obstruction,or overload .

I'm glad you escaped unscathed...sad about your gun though

The extractor guide pin hole is deffinately the thinnest point of the breech and a hard line may appear to be there because that may have need the start of what happened.

I do also agree that SOMETHING else happened here other than just pulling the trigger. The fact that everything blew out the back suggests that maybe the hull never opened up. Or maybe some sort of failure at the brass. Were the hulls used many times over?
It does not look like everything came out the front of the shell as it should have.

There is no damage or bulge at all in front of the chamber. And the blow out originated pretty much in the first inch of of the chamber.

Dr. Drew Haus is investigating a similar catastrophic failure over on the doublegundotcom forum. You should contact Dr. Drew if you're interested in what really happened.

The chamber wall thickness looks pretty stout - at least a 3-frame. That's a lot of metal to rupture through.
There appears to be quite a bit of rust under the top rib suggesting maybe a dip in water, or worse, saltwater at one time. The corrosion likely had some effect on the way it blew but my guess is some sort of obstruction. Remember in "Finding Out For Myself" it took 31,000 psi to finally destroy a Parker with composite barrels and I don't think that one blew out as severely as yours.

That is terribly unfortunate for the gun but I am glad that there were no significant injuries.

So if the metal was faulty, why did the stock also break? It doesn't add up. I suggest we get the CSI Miami team on it.

Wow! Look at those chamber walls and how they have been stretched. You say Gunter Pfrommer ID'd a crack in the chamber wall after the kaboom and it is still visable? I can't see it. Glad you are OK.

Like Dean said Dr Dreu Hause is investigating a very similar issue on another Damascus gun. Very similar.

Contact Dreu or atleast check out the double gun website.

I hope you were not hurt. I am sorry this happened to you.

Please keep us informed if you do figure out the cause.

Was the thought metal fatigue due to the crack, obstruction, over pressure/ over load?

David: I'm thankful you were not seriously injured.
As mentioned, right now METL here in Phoenix is finishing a formal failure analysis of a chamber blow out http://metl.com/services/
The 3 threads on DoubleGun
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...=356377&page=1
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...999#Post354999
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...=357105&page=1

By the appearance of the blow out, I think there is little doubt that there was an obstruction, likely at the forcing cone, and would suggest that you examine every empty used prior to the event for a missing base wad or piece of plastic. AND please check the shell that was in the chamber for expansion of the head, and an indentation on the head from the extractor. Because of the plastic deformation of the chamber, I am quite confident that this was not simply a fracture of the barrel wall.

A formal failure analysis costs more than $1000, but if you would like to send me the remains, I could measure the wall thickness around the blow out and also ask the Metallurgical Engineer at METL for his opinion. Possibly a visual exam of the edges would confirm my thoughts.
Also please send the remnants of the shell, or post an image of the head.
Another option would be destructive testing of the remains, with sectioning and photomicrographs. This is the big $s.

BTW: I'll add your images here, with an attribution
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24513874

Feel free to contact me at drewhausemd@yahoo.com if you'd like to discuss further testing.
Drew Hause M.D.

I wonder if these recent blowups have occurred due to detonation. Seems most if not all of these that were not the result of an obstruction were "lite" or reduced load reloads. Detonation occurs when there is too much space in the powder compartment and the powder burns instantaneously instead of progressively causing a huge pressure spike. It seems feasible that the wad in these reduced loads is not compressing the powder adequately?
Just a thought.

David,

You have my sympathy for the destroyed Parker but thankfully you are not injured.

Dennis

As I have read many times over since joining the PGCA these stocks are old and heavy loads should not be used in these old double guns. Possibly the load generated a much greater level of recoil than normal and that is what caused the stock to break at the wrist, the weakest part of the gun.

Dennis

David

It is a blessing that no one was hurt in this accident. You are fortunate this did not occur with fluid steel barrels. Yes I am defending Damascus.
Without the gun in hand for testing, I can't make any definative statements, however, I can offer a cursory opinion. Only two things can cause this type of failure. An extremely over pressure shell or a rigid obstruction at the forcing cone. This type of ripping of the metal indicates a single event failure, not a mechanical or structural problem.
When fliud steel barrels are exposed this type of pressure they will usually demonstrate longitudinal cracking and more fragmentation with little or no bulging. The photos show considerable bulging prior to the metal shearing off. This attests to certain maleable property I have only seen in compostie steel Barrels. A lot less shrapnell and a more gradual release of pressure.
The stock breakage is due to gases escaping into the receiver via the firing pin hole.
The beautiful patterns are not the only reason that Damascus Barrels were considered Premium.

Brad

You might see some evidence of gas escape into the stock head through the hammer holes if you remove the stock head. I have seen barrel ruptures before without this back pressure that erupted into the head.

Brad you are certainly more knowledgeable than me on this subject, however wouldn't the stock have split or blown at the head, instead of causing a 90 degree break across the grain at the grip?

How could a stock break occur due to a much greater level of recoil when the load was a low-power load?

my son has used 40 grains of 7625 in his Damascus ten gauge greeners with no problems this don't make sents

Thank you all for your opinions, suggestions, and good wishes. The main reason I was not injured, good safety glasses and gloves. I take a bit of ribbing once in a while but with out them my hand would have been cut.
Now on to a better description, the shell blew up, the only part we found was about half the plastic hull. I will continue to look for the brass head and the piece which blew off the barrel but rain and a lot of snow has kept the range closed. Back blase caused the gun to open, this back force plus the downward pressure snapped the stock. Everyone who saw it happen said the stock was broken before I dropped the gun. It was the top part of the stock and action which hit me.
The hull was a Federal and it have been reloaded a number of times and in eight or nine years the first to fail in any way. I have had other shells blow up on me (Cheddite is very bad I limit them to no more than 3 reloads) but the guns have remained intact. I have checked all 12 of the other hulls and all have there base wads and I broke the bird on 4 high. Could there have been an obstruction in the barrel, I do not know for sure. These are the things I know for sure.
I am going to get all three and the gun that are going to the Southern checked out by experts and two others are going to be sleeved one in 28 and the other in 410, never ever want a repeat. A lot of old hulls will also be hitting the dustbin.
Dave
The photo was correct the the left chamber was deformed

Do you still have the hull that blew? Is the base wad intact?

David, as others have said, sorry about the gun, but glad that you're ok.

So, how many reloads is too many for a hull ( I know it will vary per brand)? I tend to visually inspect my hulls before using them to check the brass and the ends for splits, etc. It sounds like this may not be good enough, and no matter how good the shell looks it should be discarded after a few uses?

Mike

Mr Yeatts,

Again I am sorry this happened and am glad you are well.

I am not trying to pick anything apart. Just making some observations and putting some questions out there.

That is one big section of metal that is missing. And the barrel is really bulged out.
All of the damage appears to be proximal to the forcing cones and located at the chamber over the shell.

Is there any info out there that correlates position of rupture with cause of destruction? (ie: split out way in front of forearm = stuck hull, chamber rupture= double powder charge or some major obstruction)

Don Kaas posted a few years ago some pictures how his 32" 16 barrel was split due to a stuck wad out past the forearm ( that was a few years ago so I am going off of memory) That seemed to be a split longitudinally and in a fluid steel barrel. (search catastrophic failure. I don't know how to attach it to this)

The amount of metal missing and the expansion of the barrel seems to be most impressive to me. ( mr yeatt's pictures that is)

Glad you are OK, what an awful thing to have happen, You make a good point about always wearing safety glasses and at least one glove on your barrel hand for sure.

I am thinking out loud here, 10ga Federal hulls have a tendency to split down the side from repeated firings. Could it be possible that when a hull with a split is fired the pressure could vent through the split before the crimp can open venting all the pressure against the chamber wall?

Someone mentioned detonation, I think that is most likely a myth. The NRA commissioned H.P. White Lab to make/prove detonation could occur in a 38 special as so many were blowing up with reported light loads. Thousands of deliberate attempts to create the conditions for detonation and none happened.

David, I'm glad you are okay. I'm not an expert either, but just thinking about what can cause an obstructed barrel. Everyone who reloads has occasionally experienced a squibb load, where the full powder charge doesn't drop when loading the shell. When it's fired, it makes the sound of a pop or pffft. When fired, it only has the power of a few grains of powder, or even the primer only. The squibb has enough power to eject the shot, but the wad is often left behind in the barrel. That could have been shot number 12, but the sound would have been obvious, allerting you to check the barrels.


There is also such a thing as a tumbled wad. This is a rare occurance when the wad is deformed by being loaded improperly. It may have been twisted, or folded over sideways, or a shot cup petal folded under. I have experienced a tumbled wad in shooting, one time. The report sounds like any other normal shell, but the wad melted and tumbled and stuck solid midway in the barrel. Up until that time I had only occasionally checked my barrels during shooting. Luckily, I checked that time, and found the obstruction. It took a cleaning rod, and considerable effort to get it clear. Since then, the regimen is to blow in each barrel, and visually inspect after every shot. This could have been your shot number twelve.


Dave

David, as others have said I'm happy you weren't injured. Thank you for posting.

I shoot a lot of Short Tens both for hunting and clays. Regarding Federal 10-gauge hulls, they do of course have a paper base wad that's more/less held in place by compression at the bottom of the hull. I've attached a pic of a sectioned 10 gauge Federal hull. Note that the plastic wall is crimped/held by the rim, but the base wad is not. I discard these Federal hulls after 4 loadings (to include the first factory loading if I am using once-fired hulls from RST shells). And I've developed the "trap shooter" habit of blowing through the barrel(s) after each shot to see the typical smoke at the muzzle and thus check for a base wad that's come loose. It's not commonly understood but when a shell is fired a partial vacuum is created in the barrel when gas exits the muzzle, and that can "suck" a loose base wad into the forcing cone or barrel. Shot seems normal and an obstruction is in place for the next shot.

Most of my Short Ten shooting nowadays is with the olive-green Remington hulls that have the low plastic base wad.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...psbbdf79c3.jpg

If there is the potential of a base was loosening, consequently becoming an 'obstruction' I wonder why the shotshell manufacturers believe they are necessary.
The early solid brass shotshells of the 19th century didn't have base wads and were intended to be reloaded indefinitely.... :confused:

"I have had several shells blow up on me..."

What does that mean?

As Drew stated, difinative Lab testing is quite expensive. I do a fair amount of work as a Firearms Expert Wittness. I have been retained in many, many chamber failure cases with shotguns, rifles and handguns. Wether squib load, cocked wad,overload or underload,Inthe vast majority of these cases the culprit is the ammunition not the Firearm. Overpresure failures have several unique signatures, these appear present in the pictures.
I would personally focus my investigation on the ammunition.
I am curious to know what the head of the stock looks like inside.

Brad

I'll catch flack for this...but this incident is a good example of why I never reload. It seems like the majority of gun failures I read about happened when a reload was involved.

Not "flack", Greg, just deaf ears. There are few alternatives to reloading when it comes to short tens and eight gauge.

Fishtail,

Ill back you up on this. You and I will take the flak together

I agree. All of the shotgun failures I know of except for Don Kaas's were associated with reloads. Be it modern guns or older guns. Hell this is an on going debate over on the trap shooters site about the cause of failures. But all of those referenced that I have read have been associated with reloads.

Certainly issues can happen with any shell/ load and every time we pull the trigger we take the risk but I feel just a little better shooting factory loaded shells.

I know of several guys who are excellent at reloading but know of more people who have had issues. Some not until they got the gun home and then realized a bulge or some other issue.