Opinions, please.
 

What is everyones feelings/ thoughts concerning the use of subgauge tube inserts for side by side competitions? I mean like briley tube sets, gauge mates, etc.

Is it an unfair advantage?, a none issue, should be allowed or not?

for example they are not allowed for competition use at the Vintagers or Southern events.

What is the rationale behind not allowing tube sets?

I believe it is a gentlemanly type thing. Meaning shoot the gun as it was manufactured.

Also I can understand guys who have spent several thousands of dollars to obtain an original configured gun not wanting so one to be able to step in with a gun that is not true to the gauge of the event being shoot.

I would really like to hear from as many of us as possible.

I think that we need to use only the gauge the gun was made for. It makes the shoot more real. Anyone can get sub tubes for any gun but the shoot is for the gauge the gun was made for. People have spent thousands of dollars to buy the proper gauges to shoot in these events and I think tubes should not be allowed. I bring down over 10 different guns for the S x S shoot because of different gauges and chokes, (all my guns are hard choked), so it does not seem fair to let someone to shoot everything with just one gun. Just my thoughts, Frank

Frank
I agree with you 100%,. I have spent many years and a considerable amount of money to collect an "original" group of Parkers to shoot in 28ga to 10 ga hammer and hammerless events. I enjoy shooting a gage specific event with a gun in that gage. I understand the desire to have one gun that you really enjoy, shoot well, and want to use gage mates to shoot all the events. That is not how the game has been played . Sorry John:bowdown:
David

I'm on the fence with this one. I purchased a set of gauge mates at the Parker Silent Auction two years ago, but have yet to use them to this day. The only time I thought about using them was at Backwoods during the Fall Southern. I wanted to shoot the small bore course because the folks I was shooting with were going out to do so. I had 20ga inserts for my 16ga gun, but was told that I couldn't compete with the gun in this configuration. For me, it was about shooting with my friends that afternoon, not about trying to win the 20ga event. I can understand arguments from both sides. As you said John, there are people who have spent a lifetime collecting guns and spending the money to acquire a diverse collection. Not all of us will be able to compete in the .410 Hammer Gun competition, because we just don't have that gun in our collection. The purist in me agrees that competitions should be shot with guns in the original configuration. On the other hand, as someone who is relatively new to collecting vintage doubles, and someone who hasn't had the opportunity (or the funds :) ) to acquire guns of every caliber (yet), it keeps someone like me from competing in more events, which means less competition and less revenue for the event sponsors. There are not may people our age who are interested in keeping up this tradition of shooting vintage doubles, and I'd hate to see any limitations on competitions for this reason. If there is an unfair advantage to shooting a gun with gauge mates versus the original configuration, then that is another story.

Mike

Let's keep everything even in competition. Use the same gauge shells as the gun is chambered.

I agree with Frank and Dave as well but not because of the amount of money spent on a group of guns. It's more the fact that someone who shoots one gun all the time will more than likely have an advantage and shoot better than the guy that is switching from an 8# 12 gage with 32" barrels one minute to a 5.5# 410 with 26" tubes the next. I see no reason to change an established rule for vintage SxS shoots and make them more like an NSCA shoot.

Allowing tube sets would enable more shooters to become involved with sub gauge shooting. A Parker 28 or .410 is beyond the budget of many folks.

Keep em coming guys. This is the kind of talk I was hoping for.

NO reason to apologize Mr Dwyer. I have yet to establish an opinion.

Keeping things the way they are promotes interest in guns, gun collecting, and gun trading. Allowing tubes in vintage gun competition will run the present competitors out of the game. Tubed competition style guns are an unfair advantage.

how about a gun that has been permanently rechambered down one gauge.
(IE: 10 bore rechambered permanently to a 12)

Or a 16 to a 20?

Tube if the gun was originally 16g or smaller. No everyone can afford the smaller gauge Parkers...

I say NO. We collect, shoot, compete, and hunt with vintage guns. A rechambered gun is not acceptable in a gauge specific competition. Hey, is it a 10 gauge because if left the factory as that or a 12 gauge because someone butchered a fine 10 gauge?

Why not allow any gauge so long as the shot payload is the same?

Mark,

As a way of resurrecting a gun that otherwise would not be usable.

I personally understand the concerns with tube sets but I don't see why rechambering a gun, to resurrect it, should be an issue. That should be no unfair advantage to any shooter.
IMO by doing so you have just reintroduced a gun to the world, stimulated the economy by paying for the work ( I think I am saying this correctly)

Why not allow any gauge so long as the shot payload is the same?[/QUOTE]

I don't understand this comment Mark?

I prefer keeping it original with no tubes, but am not offended if others feel differently.

I may bring my DH 10 with its orphan 12 gauge barrels and hope that is ok. The barrels are as they left the factory, just with a different receiver.

I don't understand this comment Mark?[/QUOTE]

The comment was sarcastic.

An ounce and an eighth of shot is the same no matter the bore size. Isn't that correct? Not always.

I shoot a lot of 10 gauges at the SxS events. If one can move a big gun the larger bore can be very forgiving. To prepare for those shoots I spend much time handloading those big shells one at a time. I take pride in my work. Oh, the WalMart special promotional 12 gauge shells shoot better in my 10 (with Gauge Mate adapters) than they do in a 12 but I reframe from that in vintage shoots.

If the rules for a 10 gauge shoot allowed any Tom, Dick, or Harry to compete using a borrowed gun and 12 gauge AA's they bough at WalMart then why would I bother to enter? Something about the "vintage" of the shoot would be lost.

But then why are Parker Reproduction guns not allowed in competition? Would allowing those take something from the collectors who mortgaged the farm to buy a vintage 28 gauge Parker. Yup, probably so.

I could go on with why not old pumps and pre-war Auto 5's? I like them all but...

Vintage is vintage. Let's keep it that way.

Mark

How about our controversial 10/12 being shot in the 12 ga event.

Is that an issue?

There is a some interesting info about this conversion written by Cyril Adams from Texas.
He is one very involved with "Vintage Guns".

I am in no way offended by any ones comments and in no way am trying to offend any one else.

I am just trying to get a feel for what is out there.

Gee, I guess not as long as I may use a 10 gauge with 12 gauge adapters in the same shoot. Heck I'll even use a little gum to stick the adapters in the chambers. :rotf:

Rules get confusing if they are not clear to the most casual of observers.

A guy shooting with a set of tubes doesn't bother me any. At the vintage events I have attended the demeanor of the typical shoot has been geared more toward hanging out and having fun than keeping score. I have always had the thought in the back of my mind that a 100 year old Parker is going to pattern way better than any set of tubes a guy could throw into his gun anyway!
I respect values and opinions of the experienced collectors who have spent a lifetime searching for the perfect array of guns, but it's also important to appeal to the new collector as well. Where do I fit? Novice collector maybe, my favorite guns are all Full X Full and I make due with what I have.
A final note, I would rather see a guy with a set of tubes in gun than see him have the chokes hogged out. When that gun comes back to the market, you may wish it still had the full choke!! I'm OK with the rules, but certainly wouldn't mind if they changed.

I say keep it like it is. Its true sub gauge Parker's are expensive however lesser makers are available at prices near tube set cost. I have a very shoot able 28 inch Hunter arms Hunter Special 20 bought just for the sub gauge event for about what a Briley set sells for

May move up to a Parker if I see the right gun but the original rule is not a barrier to entry.

Bill

That's the spirit Bill! There are plenty of sub-gauge vintage guns that need a good caretaker. I confess that my safe holds no small bore Parkers. There are however some small Foxes and Lefevers, each in 16 and 20!

Thanks for the comments guys.

Keep em coming.

.....

I wonder how complicated that might become.... An inspector with a set of inspection tools and charts much like is done at car racing events to be sure everyone is sticking to the rules. How would an inspector determine if a gun were "permanently" rechambered?

In my opinion, that would be perfectly okay.

I have a 0-grade 16 hammer gun on a O-frame I had sleeved to a 32" 20 gauge. When I bought the gun from a member here the barrels were heavily pitted and unsafe to use. Now it has a new lease on life and is a great dove/clays gun. Brad Batchelder did the work. I'm not trying to fool anyone with it but it is the most fun gun I own and I shoot it in every sub-gauge match I can.

I have seen Ed's gun and it is quite nice. I think any ban should stop at Briley tubes and gauge mates

Bore or chamber inserts?? I agree completely.


Oh, and screw-in chokes too!

Screw in chokes ruin a perfectly good excuse to get another gun to change chokes

Dean,

I don't know how you regulate/ enforce the rules. But those guns are out there and being used. Ask Pete Lester. He had to compete against a very good shooter using a British 10 ga rechambered to 12 ga.( I am sorry I cannot find his thread. He mentions the gun and shooter with respect and no complaints. I am using this as a reference that the guns are out there in vintage shoots)

there are several shooters who are in favor of this type of "modification". Look up Cyril Adams. Many trap shooters are having custom 12 ga guns made with 775 bores.

I am curious to see the opinions out there on this. I have considered a project for myself involving a 20 ga hammer gun. But before spending big bucks want to see how it would be perceived, as you say, be in good form or not. (I like the way you stated that BTW :))

If the project is well done like Ed's, I would see no problem with it.

The original Parker barrel makers were pretty skilled at working with bores and chokes to maximize performance. Note the recent article in DGJ about some 12 gauges with 11 gauge bores. Finding someone today who is also skilled with barrels seems to me to be no problem and probably what the old gun deserves

interesting discusion you boys got here...charlie

It becomes a slippery slope when you start changing the rules to allow certain modifications and not others, unfortunately the choices are probably going to come down to all or nothing. If we start picking apart our friends and competitors guns to see if they are sleeved, re-chambered, over bored etc., there will be more grumpy faces and less happy ones.

Chris,

I agree.

There is some discussion of some new shoots that will be coming up in later 2014 that would allow tube sets/ etc.

I see the plus and minuses of each. IMO we have to obey the rule listed for each shoot and respect those rules. However no one has addressed in those rules a gun that is permanently rechambered. All other rules have been directed towards removable devices.

I think we all stand in agreement regarding tube sets/ gauge mates/ etc.

Just my two cents worth here....I feel shooters should be required to use a gun as it was originally configured for each gauge event. If I wanted to be using race guns I would hang around with the over/under crowd.

But I do think that Parker Reproductions should be allowed in vintage events. After all they are configured the same as originals. But....fixed choke guns only.

I think an original Parker might have a slight advantage here over the Repro's because of original Parker chokes.

What about a vintage gun with extra barrel(s)?

I think extra barrels of a different gauge or a gun that has been rebarreled would be perfectly acceptable.