Rare BHE .410 4/0-frame sighting
 

Saw a very rare, odd and unusual unfired BHE .410 Repro on the tiny 0000-frame at Winter Vegas being offered for sale by its original owner. The gun has 28" bbls., 3" chambers, choked M/F, single trigger, straight grip and beavertail forend.

This gun was unusual in two different ways:

1. There were very few 0000-frame Repros made in all grades and obviously even fewer made in the BHE grade. They are only very occasionally seen as their owners have them squirreled away.
2. This gun is ultra-unusual and extra-odd in that it is BHE grade throughout except it had typical DHE Repro engraving and was sans the single bead fences. It had B-grade wood, checkering, engraved barrel wedges and all the metal components-- watertable, forend and barrels were stamped BHE.

. . . rare, odd and unusual. I walked away shaking my head.

Another rare Repro seen was being offered by Larry Baer. An A-1 Special in-the-white 3 bbl. set in its factory O & L case. 28/28/.410 on a 00-frame. Reportedly the only one ever produced.

Interesting. What prices were being asked for these guns.

$25K for the BHE and the A-1 Special was tagged at $35K.

I couldn't justify 25K for a BHE that is engraved like a DHE.

Greg,

Thanks, I didn't think they would be in that price range.

Ken

I've been contemplating this little 4/0- frame BHE, not for purchase, but for what the DHE engraving does to its value. Does it affect the value in a positive way similar to an already rare coin that has been mis-struck? Or does it affect the value in a negative way by diminishing its desirability? What do you think?

Has anyone here seen one of the other 8 or so BHE 410 repro's that can say that this one is unique, or were they all made like this? Just asking.

My understanding is that only two 0000 frame guns were made...both prototypes. This could explain the engraving issue as it was only a experimental gun. I would think being this rare, it would be worth the asking price. That gun should only weigh 5lbs if on a 0000 frame. Very rare indeed! I wish I could see one in person.....SXS ohio

I have seen some 0000 frame BHEs. They are not prototypes. Their production numbers are well known. End of production of all Repros ended production of the 0000 frame BHE .410s. It was to be a catalogued production item, not a prototype. Kevin McCormack and I had a couple of 0000 .410s in our ".410 Parker" display at the Baltimore Show several years ago. One was a factory BHE and one was a factory Gournet engraved A-1 Special. Geoffroy Gournet has engraved several 0000 frame .410s since production ended. A friend and I ordered two 0000 frame BHEs when we were shown the first prototype, but the order was never filled. The actual production of DHE and BHE 0000 frame .410 has been posted recently. I assume the D engraved, B marked gun at Beinfeld's show is one of the rare DHEs mentioned in the production chart. By the way, many 00 frame .410 barrels are stamped 0000, but the 0000 frame is very different from the 00 frame. I assume that the 33 DHE .410s in the production figures are 00 frame guns. The Vegas gun may be the only D engraved 0000 frame gun out there. Before I sprung for that gun, I would be very sure it was a 0000 frame. Who offered that gun?

I would think the DHE style engraveing would detract from the value. A BHe is a higher grade gun and should therefor look like it.

Greg, the BHE 0000 frame .410 is not an unusual combination. BHE is the grade that these guns were made in, with the exception of the D engraved one you saw. Without breech ball beads, I question whether it is a 0000 frame. The 0000 frame is very different from the 00 frame and doesn't have what can be described as breech balls. Who offered that unusual gun?

Bill, I never said the BHE 0000-frame .410 was an unusual combination. What I said was that it is unusual in the sense that they are seldom seen. I have been to the Winter Beinfeld Show 11 times, the VC a couple of times, other S x S events many times, local shoots and gun shows and run in circles of S x S enthusiasts and have never had my hands on one before. I also said it was ultra-unusual and extra-odd in the sense that it's a BHE with DHE-style engraving. I would guess that even you would have to admit that is somewhat unusual.:)

Make no mistake this was indeed a 0000-frame. I compared it to the 00-frame 28/28/.410 A-1 Special I previously mentioned. The frame itself is about 1/16", maybe a hair more narrower than a 00-frame.

The seller's name is Paul Dorsa from Los Gatos, CA. He bought the gun new from Parker
Reproduction dealer Mike Weatherby. Incidently, he also had a .410 Parker on a 000-frame at the show.

How can it be a BHE "throughout" but be engraved like a D, No bead, and barrel wedges? Checkering alone doesn't make a BHE, to me

Edgar, please don't take what I described in my initial post out of context.

Please do not confuse the 0000 barrels for 0000 frame guns. All of the 410 set that have been listed or seen her are on 00 frame 28ga. guns with 0000 marked 410 barrels. All the 410 sets are marked 0000. Only one true 5lb. 0000 complete gun has been confirmed that I know of and I did not see or handle it. This is a very confusing issue since the frame is not marked. The only way to know is by weight. My 0000 frame 410/00 28 comes in at 6lbs-4oz with 410-s in place. The one BHE 0000 true prototype was 5lbs. That's what I know after years of study. SXS ohio

Her is a letter about the 410 sets
 

I hope you can read this, its small,,,thanks Kenny

Greg, I didn't think I was manipulating your words, but as sweet as a 4 ought frame gun must be, I don't see how it could be a BHE throughout, but with D grade engraving, which is very much less coverage than a B grade. Additionally, lacking a single bead behind the breach balls is not in keeping with any B grade I've seen, nor have I seen a B grade with barrel wedge engraving, which would usually only be sen on some double A grades, and A-1 Special

Edgar, we're in the Parker Reproduction Forum here and we're talking about a Parker Reproduction BHE. Parker Repro BHE Grades typically have barrel wedge engraving. You can Google Images yourself to check 'em out, but I already did that for you with the image below:

Thanks for that image. That one does have the bead behind the bolsters, and the Checkering pattern is pretty faithful to the original, though I guess they took license when they added the barrel wedge engraving.

Please read the remainder of the top left column paragraph in this link:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.p...pictureid=1027

Are you saying that the reported 33 factory completed 0000-frame .410 Repros were only built as B-Grades?

Greg, to begin, you DID state that the BHE grade 0000 frame .410 was unusual among 0000 frame .410s. That is not the case. Among factory finished 0000 frame .410s, the BHE was the catalog gun and the grade they are found in, with the exception of the gun being discussed with the D grade engraving. Kenny, you are beating a dead horse. It has been stated on this forum for years, and again stated by me in this thread, that most, if not all, 00 frame .410 barrels are marked 0000. Additionally, your statement about 0000 frame guns being identified by weight or any other method other than "looking at the frame" is a fallacy. The 0000 frame, for those who have seen one, is very obvious at first glance. There are no exposed breech balls, the hint of a breech ball being inletted into the width of the receiver. You continue to say that only one true 0000 frame .410 has been located. I have seen several, had several in my hands. I resent the fact that you are calling me a bit of a fibber about this. I would like to see Kevin McCormack post here, because he also has seen a few, and had them in his hands. Apparently your "Years of study" didn't show you that the frames are different in appearance and the "weight" is a red herring. Sure, the weight is different, but scales are scarce at Winter Vegas.

Greg, this is an answer to your last question. Of the 33 finished guns, there are 9 reported to have been "finished and factory engraved to grade". Of these, all known except the gun in question are or should be BHE grade. The remaining 24, working 0000 frame .410s, were white and unengraved. Most were engraved by Geoffroy Gournet after production ceased , with some rumored to be retained by the Skeuse family. For the information of Kenny Graft, I have seen several of the guns in process by Geoffroy, and have also seen a finished A-1 Special by Geoffroy, had it in my hands, and waved it around. I have also had in my hands, a prototype as Kenny refers to it. Kenny is incorrect in saying the 0000 .410 is "only a prototype". It is a production gun. The production figures are well known. The prototype is identical to production 0000 frame .410s as see it. I examined it in detail and have examined other 0000 frame .410s in detail, and saw no difference. I don't know the serial number of the prototype I examined.

Parker Reproductions Northeast Sales Manager, Ray Stone, visited here on August 31, 1988, to display and promote the Repro and the new .410 BHE. He brought a beautiful little prototype with him for examination and display. My friend, Mel Swerdloff, and I placed orders for identical .410 BHEs, his field choked, mine skeet choked. We had hours to inspect the new gun, but it only took me about five minutes to decide I needed one. Ray didn't know the price of the new gun and I didn't care. I still have a copy of the order.

Chaddic had one of the two know true 0000 frame guns. I did see pictures of it but not good ones, it only was 410 and 5lbs. About the other 33 guns you speak of, they are on 00 frames... end of story unless you can show pictures of the frame with no balls....I saw this or that but no pictures have ever shown up. Look back in the old threads, lots of speculation but never any real proof. Think about the 410 barrels, they are made to mate to 28ga. 00 frames. If the frame was little the barrels would hang out past the breach balls. It just can't work. oooo frame stand alone 410 never got past the one or two prototypes. Im real sure there is not 33 of them. Thanks all, SXS ohio

The BHE in four gauges were introduced by a memo to dealers in 1988 at a retail of $3900 plus. One hundred of each gauge were to be produced. By 1989, they were missing from Repro literature. The Gun List advertisement placed by Mike Weatherby, offering a BHE .410, was dated April 9, 1993, long after production ended. The assumption is that Paul Dorsa's gun, seen at Las Vegas, was purchased from that ad, or maybe another Weatherby offering earlier. The Weatherby asking price was $16,000.

Kenny, you are being very impolite to tell me that I have not seen what I have seen. I've been in this longer than you have and have seen the guns. I know about the Chaddick gun, and it is not, as you say, one of two known genuine 0000 frame .410s. Maybe you should post those pictures. Geoffroy and I measured the pin separation on 0000 frame guns to confirm that they are different from the 00 frame. They are. The barrels of a 0000 do not "hang out the sides", because they are smaller than the 0000 marked 00 frame barrels. Without consulting my notes, I seem to recall that the genuine 0000 frame has an identical pin separation with the original Parker Brothers 000 frame. Please do not persist on implying I am not telling the truth.

The 33 DHE .410s in the production chart are assumed to be, as you suggest, 00 frame dedicated .410 guns, not part of sets, very hard to find, because some probably got converted into sets. The 0000 frame BHEs, which the production chart lists as 9 built, are a completely different animal. However, the 9 BHEs are not the complete production of 0000 frame guns, as I stated in my earlier post.

Bill, how do you know which frame size the 9 .410 BHEs listed in the production chart were built on?

I have to think that the 33 DHE .410s listed in the production chart were extrapolated from the Sisley article---although the Sisley article did not mention what grade they were finished out in.

Where did I say "the BHE grade 0000 frame .410 was unusual among 0000 frame .410s." Or did you take what I said out of context? Unusual, to me, is something that is not usual. I have been at the Repro game since the mid 80s and I hoisted a grand total of just one 0000-frame gun. That, in my world, qualifies as something that is unusual or not usually seen.

On page one of this thread, in your paragraph you numbered "1.", is where I see that you stated that there "were few 0000 guns and even fewer B Grades". In fact, most were B grades. I can see where you meant that if there were one 0000 gun that was not a B Grade, your statement makes sense. I apologize for my misunderstanding your point.

:dh::dh: Oh come on lets beat it some more....I'm glad I got a Fox FE 410:rotf:

You just gotta love this type of thread busting post. :rolleyes:

Oh well, I learned something from the discussion and hope others did as well.

Greg I learned a few things myself:shock: Hope to see you at a shoot sometime:)

Greg, even though we don't agree on everything we discuss, your last post was quite profound. Thank you so much.

If you've never seen and/or would like to take a look at a Parker Reproduction BHE .410 on a 0000-frame, go here:

http://www.icollector.com/Parker-by-...6-b_i10488354#

I believe we discussed this very gun a few years ago. You can see another, this one engraved by Geoffroy Gournet, on pages 38 & 39 of the Winter 2013 DGJ.

Now there is a picture I can live with. THIS is nobody's 00 frame. Thanks.

When taking another look at the 4/0-frame BHE .410 in the above link I cannot say with absolute certainty that the DHE engraved BHE that was shown in Vegas didn't have the single bead, too. As you can see, the bead appears a little different on the 4/0-frame than on the larger frames.

Yes, the entire bead and ball area is inletted into the frame on the 0000 frame gun. It is very different from the 00 frame configuration. The gun in the auction pictures is probably a Robert Petersen gun and was the buy of the century in Parker Repros. I have no idea who owns it now.

Can you believe the auction site predicted it would sell for $3000-$6000 :shock:!?

I stand corrected....)-: In the future I will ask questions, not make statements. This topic is filled with mystery and flawed info. This is the first time I learned about the true 0000 frame guns except for the prototype that Chaddic claimed to own, it being one of two made....sorry for any confusion. The thing that makes this all so confusing is that they marked the 410 barrels that fit 00 frame guns with same frame size, 0000!, how can that be correct? They must be different to fit the bigger 00 frames. The production stats in parker story states about 30 sets of 0000 frame barrels were made to fit 00 28ga. guns....ware did these other 0000 BHE barrels sets come from? I know about 13 set were mated to DHE 28 sets and some to 00 BHE and A-1s. Did they use the rest to make the BHE mini frame guns by altering them some how?? or did these true 0000 barrels get left out of the count? Research...research ...research....we must know...(-: SXS ohio

As I recall, the one Herschel Chaddick had was being offered at something like $23K at the time. Am I correct in my recollection?