Forum Proposal
 

Happy New Year to my Parker Bros and sisters! One of my favorite features of this site and a major benefit for members is the "Parker's for Sale" forum. We get to see guns for sale that the general population never sees. But, we are not getting to see all the great guns we could be seeing and having a chance to purchase. The reason being, there are members who refuse to list their guns on the forum because they don't like the nitpicking that can sometimes take place. Or, someone starts talking about their gun or one they saw just like it. I realize there are stipulations in the Rules about what is proper etiquette but, it's hard to monitor and there are many gray areas. My proposal would be to allow only the seller to post comments about the gun for sale. All questions and concerns could be handled by a "Ask Seller A Question" feature. If, it was pointed out that the serial number wasn't listed or the barrel length, etc, the seller could post the additional information. I believe this will make the forum much more user friendly and we will see guns that now are going to Gun Broker or other sites. I appreciate everything that the people who run this site do the members and non-members alike. This is not a criticism of anyone. Just something new to consider starting a new year.

I would not wish for all comments to be restricted, but perhaps a policy of only discussing the gun offered and not bringing in extraneous information. Not a free-for-all but useful discussion. What I fear is that all the knowledge possessed by the members of this forum would be denied someone interested in a gun. David

I agree with Mike!

If you want more information on a gun, ask the seller through a PM. If he realizes that his audience needs that info, then it's up to him to publish it.

There is another double gun site with a "for sale" section that has fallen into absolute squalor from subjective and downright derogatory comments about items for sale. No one seems to care.

In my mind, PGCA is in a completely different category of gentlemanly respect. And should remain such.

Good idea Mike !!

David you make a valid point about valuable info on guns but what happens many times is opinions are put forth that aren't relevant. Valuable info can be had from every other forum on this site and facts and opinions are welcome. I agree with Scott that it should be between the seller and potential buyer.

The parker site will never become what other site your are talking is
This site is well moderated which the other site is not
And the strength of the people on this site would never allow what is going on there
I feel back and forth discussion is important and shouldn’t be limited
And usually when a member goes to far all here know it and tend to disregard their input
I learn something new most every day on here from all posts including for sale posts
If something gets out of hand I am sure our moderators will be very quick to deal with it

Hi Mike,

This appears as the "Rules" at the top of that same area of the site that you reference:

Sticky: Listing For Sale Items...

Read that, and let me know what you think? It hasn't changed since I programmed that area of the forum - but is exactly to your point. Is it a "grey area" to moderate it? You bet...

Best to you,

John

Hi John,
I've read the Rules for the forum and they do address the issues. However, it puts the moderators in a tough spot when they have to interpret them and call someone out. I only make this proposal because I have heard from some of the members who will not list their guns and that's a fact. I think it's a shame because we all miss out. I ask would we rather have more commentary or more guns for us to consider selling and buying?

All that being said and regardless if this gets anywhere, this is THE BEST website and forum of it's kind on the web. You only have to go to some other site to realize how good we have it. The gentlemanly demeanor and vast knowledge shared here has probably done more for the Parker collecting and shooting community than anything else. Thanks John for all you have done and continue to do.

Mike:
Thank you. I'm equally grateful to you for being a part of the best double gun site in the world ! Perhaps I was too frank in my distaste for another venue.

Personally, I very much enjoy posting a few guns for sale here. Each and every time I've made new friends and have enjoyed a most cordial transaction. I urge others to join in the PGCA congeniality and post both knowledge and guns for others to consider.

The "Members Only" section of the forum which is for the sale of guns by PGCA Members is a very valuable benefit to our members and nothing beats it - but for those who wish to offer a gun for sale exclusively to PGCA Members before advertising it anywhere else, where you can be sure not to get any irrelevant or negative chatter about it, is the Parker Pages "The Parker Marketplace" if you're not in a hurry to sell. Just sayin'.... and meaning no disrespect to the PGCA website, its administrator or moderators.

I have an issue with people posting in the "For Sale" are guns that they do not own. You see at least once a month a "Selling for a Friend...", this is against the rules but still flies by the Mods.

Generally those have been pre-qualified by the moderators before they are posted.

and almost every one I have noticed - like the one Dave just posted, belong to PGCA members who for one reason or another don't use the forum.

Exactly. As in the other posts, Dave represented it exactly as it was/is - and as well, is responsible for the transaction as it occurs on the Forum.

That is what this Forum is about - or, at least - what it should be, in my vision - which this entire forum reflects.

Have a wonderful evening,

John

Another option for selling guns through PGCA is the classified section of Parker Pages. I bought a Parker advertised there and was very pleased with the transaction.

I just read the rules. It says no public comment unless you are interesting in buying it-which actually makes little sense. Why is there ever a need for public comment? The rule permits comment if you want to buy. Otherwise, the rules requires no comment. If you are interested in buying it, just send a PM! There is no need for public comment (although the unnecessary public comments are overwhelmingly positive and very rarely negative).

Over the years I have been a member, the rules on the for sale forum have never been consistently enforced. The best example of that is the requirement that a price be posted. Many times members will post that they have guns available for sale at some upcoming event but not post prices. Depending on who you are, you may or may not get called on it by other members or the moderator. Personally, the failure to post a price does not offend me. I'm just pointing something out folks have a problem with.

"Selling for a friend" is another issue as Chris points out. I guess I have
learned tonight that nonmembers can sell guns through members if they are "pre-qualified" by the moderator? Where is that in the rules? (it isn't). You are either a member or your not and the moderator should not be permitted to "pre-qualify" a nonmember at his discretion. After all rules are rules and the
moderator is charged with enforcing them! A member selling for another member should not require any prequalifcation so that is a nonissue (although it is not expressly permitted by the rule either but who cares?) I'm confused as to what may be going on here and may be misunderstanding whether nonmembers are permitted to sell through members at the moderators
discretion. Are the sale of nonmember's guns sometimes pre-qualified?

Problems with "grey areas" to moderate arise when the rules are vague, ambiguous, arbitrary and/or nonsensical. Such rules create an unnecessary burden on the moderator (although some of them have been apparently decreed by moderators) and invite arbitrary enforcement. Since the rules on
the for sale forum are not consistently enforced, Mike's idea is a good one.

Thanks for taking the time to share your view.

- John

If it aint broke don't fix it. IMHO it ain't broke. Just think if you forgot to mention that your gun had 30" barrels or the LOP was 14" how many PMs you would have to respond to one at a time. You would never get your gun sold.

Wow....I guess I spoke out of turn when I stated that a few might have been pre-qualified by a moderator.

I take it back....

Everything OK now?

I second Wayne

Any information that was forgotten to be listed could be added by the seller. There would be no need for answering every PM. If, the seller wanted to add it he could very easily. The bottom line is there are a lot of members who won't list their guns for sale due to the way the forum is set up. Wouldn't it be better for all of our members if we got to see these guns and have a chance to buy them? John is a wizard. Maybe he could make it optional when someone listed a gun for sale, the seller could choose to disable comments if he so desired. When a policy or practice is off putting to members then it's good policy to make improvements. No one suffers, no one gets hurt.

I kinda like it the way it is. Questions asked - answers given. Compliments made - compliments graciously accepted.

Nobody has a perfect gun for sale. Every used gun has indicators that it is a used gun... everybody can see them but we don't need to point them out.... that's just bad form and poor etiquette.

As long as nobody picks a gun apart or asks stupid questions or makes impertinent comments..... it ain't broke.

Gentlemen,

As many of you know I am a moderator of the PGCA forums. In that I and Jeff Kuss work for our webmaster John Dunkle for which none of us receive any compensation.

Because I am a moderator I try to stay out of petty squabbles on these forums. If any of those squabbles get intense I swiftly and fairly moderate. Sometimes that is in the form or a private message (PM) to the violator(s). If someone has clearly broken a rule such as engaging in political debates or uses a racial slur then I give them an Infraction. I also DO NOT edit or close thread because I think they are a waste of electrons. At least and probably only one person is enjoying blogging on this forum...

I am often contacted to look at posts that may not be acceptable. For these I usually take action. I have however been contacted because someone posted something that someone else didn’t like. These situations often require communication with John and/or Jeff for a second opinion.

I close threads at the request of the originator. I will also close a thread if someone is getting disrespectful to another. I don’t do this without reading the entire thread to ascertain the entire context of the dispute.

I stated the above as background for the following;

Someone stated that the rules are not enforced evenly. I take deep exception to that statement. I treat as all, as do John and Jeff, equal with the exception of known troublemakers, i.e. repeat offenders. Those persons have used up their share of the grace afforded to all participants. Known troublemakers receive attention faster than persons who usually are respectful to others and follow the rules.

Toward the above, if an item is posted without a price I advise them usually with a PM. If the post isn’t revised within a day, I will make a “soft delete” on it. The post is still there but not visible. When the seller finally contacts me inquiring about their post I will undelete it.

If however one posts a list of Parker for sale at an event and those items are not priced then what is the harm? If they post a string of photos without prices then they need to post prices. Some persons will only sell a firearm face to face and won’t discuss prices on the Internet. In those situations if you are interested in their wares try sending a PM or calling them.

If someone is selling something and others pollute their thread with superfluous written garbage I will delete those posts at the request of the seller. Often however some chit-chat in a thread keeps it in the attention of potential buyers. If a For Sale thread allowed NO response then there would be no “To The Top”.

Concerning the use of PM’s only in a For Sale post; I require it when I post on this forum items for sale. If a potential buyer contacts me on the forum with questions I advise them to send me a PM. This keeps the tire kickers away and provides the means for a potential buyer and me to converse privately. Also, if one can’t follow simple directions then why would I do business with them? That would be asking for trouble…

I read the majority of the posts, especially those For Sale and Wanted to Buy. I see respondents asking questions which were answered in the original posts. Other times, a seller states to call them at the phone number listed for information, or to buy. People still post questions or offers to buy on the forum. Why? The seller stated to call them. If one doesn’t follow directions and misses out on a good buy to someone who followed the directions then who is at fault?

I think the PGCA forums work as they are. We moderators try to be fair with our duties. The members pretty much police the forums and those who come here wanting to bully others or act like snobs either change their ways or go away.

If one doesn't want feedback on a PGCA forum For Sale thread then STATE THE RULES for which you will sell your item(s), i.e. “I will only respond to PM or Phone Call”. A little feedback does however help sell an item. :whistle:

If one desires no feedback on a For Sale thread then I recommend Guns International or Gun Broker. I have sold non-Parkers on Guns International for a $10 fee with good results. Otherwise sellers may list their items in the PARKER PAGES.

PS: The PGCA forum is perhaps the best gun forum on the Internet due to John Dunkle. John provides the servers, software, and special coding on which our forum is based. Those items are not cheap nor is John's time. When someone suggests that John could write new code to provide a new function I hope they realize that John would do that at his expense. A request such as that would best be sent to John privately for him to consider.

Everyone have a nice day :)
Mark

and you earn every penny of that dealing with us :)


Mark (and Jeff & John)

hope you realize that the vast majority of us really appreciate your efforts, we know its a labor of love - and thank you all for giving us a great forum to babble on about our favorite shotguns.

I also appreciate those like Mike who make polite suggestions as to how the forum (or PGCA) can be improved. Even if those ideas aren't carried out, it does not hurt to make suggestions as long as it remains respectful.

Benevolent dictatorship is what should be expected from the moderation of a public forum such as ours. Any internet format like PGCA is made up of a technologically diverse membership with the gamut of technical skills. Within the last week I have read folks having difficulty with internet searches, cut and pasting information and private messaging. Not to mention photo posting. With all of that, the thread hijacking and dispersing thoughts leave them with a pretty difficult set of circumstances to moderate and administer.

There is no investment required to participate in the forums and no ownership in the site and its' technology. Discussions like this one allow cheap shots as well as supporting comments to drift in with anonymity. This is a classic case for private messages to be used rather than a thread! We all need to come to this forum with an understanding that we are at the mercy of the moderators moods, perceptions and understanding. They provide us much service but web site management is not a democracy, so pray for benevolent dictators. I believe ours are!

Forgive me all if I am missing something here. I do like the way the For Sale section is set up EXCEPT for people who list a gun for a friend. That has always irritated me no end. I don't believe in any exceptions to that rule either no matter who makes the exception. It is a rule or it isn't. It doesn't bother me a bit that someone forgets to list the barrel length, gauge, frame size or price. If a buyer is interested in the gun they can simply post a question regarding anything the seller simply forgot to include in their post.

Again maybe I am missing something here but I see no reason a member who wants to sell his gun won't list it on the For sale forum if they want to sell the gun. I have sold guns that I did not list on the forum but it had nothing whatsoever to do with policies of the forum. I simply didn't want to go that route at the time and they were not Parker guns.

I like the section as is.

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

From the Forum Decorum: http://www.parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9841

Do NOT post Internet links (addresses) of guns for sale or auction other than a member giving notice of their guns for sale in the Members Only section. Further, please DO NOT POST THEM IN THE PGCA FOR SALE FORUM! In short, if you do NOT own the firearm for sale, or have the right to sell it – do not post it in the PGCA For Sale Forum. The PGCA Member “Off Topic” forum would be just dandy, though…

The forum rules evolve over time. Our Webmaster allows one to sell a Parker or other collectible gun for a friend that one has control over the sale ("right to sell it"). A PGCA member may sell for another member who doesn't use the Internet or this site. A member may also sell for the widow next door, aunt Martha and uncle Henry who don't know a Parker from a petunia, of anyone so long as that member has control over the sale. That means post a price and good photos to allow a clean sale. One should not waste electrons and bandwidth posting a VH 12 with cut barrels for $5,000 because uncle Henry thinks it is worth that much. Also, if selling often for lots of friends I believe that seller will be answering questions from our Webmaster.

If selling for a friend and you have control over the sale then just list it as yours. If posting for another PGCA member with instructions to contact that member, as I have, that's okay. If posting for a friend with instructions to contact a non-PGCA member, then that would not be acceptable. If the owner is NOT a PGCA member then the poster MUST control the sale.

Further, even dealers may sell via the PGCA forum so long as they post the sale here first for a couple weeks. Do not post for sale here when something has been or is for sale on Gun Broker or Guns International. A dealer should know better than to abuse a free service for commercial gain.

I hope this clears up this mud. :rotf:

The forum will evolve over time and crusty old S.O.B. such as me must also evolve, as painful as that is! :crying:
Mark

Mark,

It did clear things up a lot for me. I appreciate you getting back to me in a timely manner.

Semper Fi my brother,

Dennis

Nobody posts on the Members Only, Guns For Sale forum in anonymity.

I think that Russ's comments pertained to the discussion about the For Sale forum rather than any For Sale threads.

Thanks for the correction Mark..... Sorry Russ for my misdirected reply to your post.

if you do NOT own the firearm for sale, or have the right to sell it – do not post it in the PGCA For Sale Forum. The PGCA Member “Off Topic” forum would be just dandy, though…

I've stayed out of this, but come on guys (Dennis) if someone want's to post a gun (that we would/might never see) for a friend or a widow, we should not be not allowed to post it. Come on......Posting an internet ad is a "no" I understand that, but allowing someone to post an ad that would be of interest to the members instead of posting it to one of the internet boards..:eek: We get first chance to see this gun and this is bad because of .................:banghead:

I think everyone is doing what they want to with this rule. there is a ten gauge listed in the for sale forum today that is also listed on gun broker. Broker listing is 385551551

Wayne,

Close but no cigar :) That is a different gun.

When the 10 gauge was posted on the PGCA forum I could have sworn that I had recently seen it listed on Gun Broker. I searched for the listing but it was not there. I gave the poster the benefit of the doubt.

If you see something that breaks the rules please use the Report Post function on the lower left part of the screen.

Thanks,
Mark

Never mind!

Thanks Mark,

You saved me from posting my reply ;)

John

After posting the above I checked Guns America and saw the exact same listing. I knew that I had seen that listing before.

Listing on our site at the same time as a commercial site earned a swift delete of the add on the PGCA forum.

Mark

Can anyone point out to me where the rules provide that a gun cannot be listed on the PGCA and a commercial site at the same time? I can't find it. Thanks.

Yes Ray, right here.... just click on the "Sticky; Listing For Sale Items" link.

I see the rules here like "ObamaCare", special exemptions, rules ignored and posts deleted on whims… :dh: