A&F CHE 20ga
 

1904 CHE 20 gauge in original Abercrombie & Fitch oak and leather case with A&F New York marked oil bottle and snap caps. The case has shipping and train stickers.

Gun weight is 6lbs 3oz, and although the original patterning hang tags are missing, they would have given the chamber length as 2 1/2" for 2 5/8" shells, and patterning count for 7/8oz at 2 1/4 drams. The chokes are original at .004 and .023 ( near Cyl. and Full), which Parker suggested as an all-around upland choke. The barrel length is 26" on a 0 frame. Barrels are original diameter and not honed.

With the cylinder barrel, Parker stated that the average killing circle would be 29" at 25 yards and 20" with the full choke barrel, also at 25 yards.

Parker recommended three hammerless era 20 gauge loads:
3/4 at 2 1/4
7/8 at 2 1/4
7/8 at 2 1/2

Actual Parker chamber lengths for most 20 gauges are 2 19/32".

Cartridges at 7/8oz 2 1/2 dram loads are available from Remington, Winchester, Federal , RST and others. RST shells measure 2 1/2" when expanded, Remington, Winchester and Federals between 2 5/8 and 2 11/16. The two lighter loads are available from RST or handloading.

By the early 1890's , Parker had designed its guns for smokeless powder, and proofed and patterned with smokeless.

Bruce,
With such a great gun and the case, that is a very nice package. If only it had Bernard tubes you would have your "Holy Grail".

Wow beautiful…...

Thanks for the photos! Bruce always posts great photos of some great Parkers

That C is another one we can call "Big Bird".

Beautiful gun and case combination. Thanks for sharing.

I don't know of any North American ammunition manufacturers offering a 2 5/8 inch 20-gauge shell. The lengths normally offered in 20-gauge in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century were 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch. The heaviest loads the ammunition companies offered in the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell was 2 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 18 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 7/8 ounce of shot. That was the heaviest 20-gauge load offered in the 1903, 4, and 5 UMC Catalogues. By 1910, UMC had begun offering the 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 20-grains of Infallible or Ballistite dense smokeless powder, pushing that same 7/8 ounce of shot, but only from the 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch hull.

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In the early 1920s, when progressive burning smokeless powders were introduced to shotgun shells, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X load leading the way, the high velocity 1 ounce 20-gauge Super-X load was put up in Western's 2 3/4 inch FIELD shell.

The other ammunition companies followed suit, and put out their 1 ounce, 20-gauge, high velocity load in a 2 3/4 shell. Peters going the others one better and also offered to put the 1 ounce high velocity 20-gauge load up in a 2 7/8 or 3-inch 20-gauge case. In the early 1930s, after the Olin's took control of Winchester, they revamped the Winchester ammunition line to where the Winchester Super-Speed and Ranger shotshell lines pretty much mirrored Western's own Super-X and Xpert lines. During the 1930s and early 40s, Winchester offered a 20-gauge, Super-Speed, 1 ounce load, in a 2 1/2 inch case as well as a 2 3/4 inch case. Load No. 58 was their 2 3/4 inch, 20-gauge, Super-Speed load, and according to Winchester Catalog 89, Load No. 57 was the same load in a 2 1/2 inch case. Load No. 57 and 58 were still being offered in the 1941 Winchester Ammunition Guide.

Guess I've babbled on enough about 20-gauge shells!!

The load recommendations are from the Parker Small Bore Shot Gun brochure, pp 9, 11. Mine is about a 1915 publication.

I am aware of the 1 oz 20ga loads made by manufacturers in the 1930's but I have found no mention that Parker ever recommended them. Even in the long or magnum 20ga loads in a Parker, I believe those were still 7/8 oz. I don't know what those uncommon Parker 1 frame 20's are intended to shoot.

Bruce ,I know ,I don't have to tell you because on the occasion you post a picture of that gun I always say it but I just can't help myself ,You are one very fortunate fellow to own that little gun ,it is wonderful !:bowdown:

Wonderful is the operative word. Very, very nice Bruce. Thanks for sharing it with us!

Just trying to provide interesting and informative subject matter to our forum. Dave Noreen's contributions are always appreciated. Readers seem to like photos.

Anything to get away from what went on last week.....see my Thomas Hardy quote under Location.


On a varied note, Parker used the term "killing circle" when describing pattern effectiveness, see the Small Bore Shot Gun brochure. The killing circle is different than the pattern test board, which was a 30" diameter circle at 40 yards and you simply count pellet strike percentage to determine choke. The killing circle was tested at 25 yards and its diameter varied according to the number of shot pellet hits that would be in a bird in that area. So, killing circle varied by gauge, shot size, and choke and measured effective density. However, for the detail minded, that raises many questions and I know nothing more about it. I have not seen killing circle defined either in Parker literature or by other authors.

As an example, a killing circle for a cylinder bore 20ga 7 shot at 25 yards is 29", for the same with full choke, 20".

So, what size bird and how many pellet hits? How exactly was killing circle determined?

Bruce, I will answer your question about Parker recommended loads for large frame 20 gauges. My old #2 frame VH 20, #153,333 was ordered by Orren R. Dickey in Boston in the era of the smallbore booklets. The order requested that the gun be built to shoot 1 ounce of shot. The smallbore pamphlet of the time stated that such a load "Is not loaded by the ammunition companies and not recommended by Parker Brothers". Recommended or not, they would build you a gun to shoot it. By the way, I'm looking for my old 20 to add to my collection.

Hi Bruce:

I am in love with that gun. Damascus barreled 20ga C grade in bird gun configuration, original A&F case - oh yeah! Twere it mine I might sell all my other guns and use the money to take it hunting year round. I would go to the Southern hemisphere when it is Summer in the North.

Gough Thomas / GT Garwood writes extensively of patten density, shot size, and game. As do Bob Brister and Charles Askins (the elder). Or course, since Burrard covered everything, he covered that subject too.


Best,


Mike

For the life of me I can't see why anyone would want to use 1oz of shot in a 20ga. If that shot charge is needed/wanted the shooter would be better suited to using a 16 or a 12.

Nice gun Bruce that roundaval engraveing isn't seen on many guns. I wonder why they didn't do more of that style of engraveing IMHO it's pretty classy.

Its only 29 serial numbers difference. Jim

Rich, I'm a believer in matching shot weight to bore. 3/4 to 7/8 for 20, 7/8 to 1 for 16 and 1 to 1/8 for 12. Parker Bros and the old shotgunners knew things that the ammunition and gun industry seems to have forgotten today.

Mike, thanks and you have some fabulous guns, such as that 20ga A. I'm looking for the definition of killing circle. We all have the sense of what it is but there must have been a definition published somewhere circa 1910.

Don't be so wrapped up in the "bird gun" mentality. Variety is what makes the Parker world go around. Without .410s, 28s, 10s, and 8s, Parkers would be as boring as some other brands. No, I didn't shoot any heavy loads in my old 3" 20 gauge, but it was a neat Parker nonetheless.

I really like rondel engraving very different and interesting in my opinion. Every time Bruce posts pictures of his C I get all weak in the knees!! A dealer in Duluth has a straight grip BH with rondel engraving that makes me sweat every time I look at the pictures.

really nice guns shown and talked about...but on the shot charges i guess i m a oddball i like the heavier charges in my loads..1 ounce to 1 1/4 in a 20 ga 1 to 11/4 in 16 ga 1 1/8 to 2 1/4 ounce in the12 ga same load for the mighty ten and up to 3 ounce for the 8 ga. these are hunting loads i prefer...and just my opinion...charlie

Killing Circles
 

Bruce, I have attempted to enter some information on the meaning of killing circles circa 1910 for three nights in a row and have been frustrated by the timing out of this web site's sign in feature, i.e. after typing in a couple of paragraphs and hitting the reply button, i am directed to sign in again and after doing such, I am directed to back key to enter a reply, and proceed to lose all the reply's contents. Therefore, I now surrender and instead of giving a detailed answer siting sources, I will just leave this terse answer:

Bruce, this term does make for some interesting reading in the shooting literature. In The Gun and Its Development 1910 edition Greener says: " The term "Killing Circles" is used to designate the extent of the spread of the pellets in a lateral direction, so long as the "pattern" is not too wide to allow of the escape of the game." Pages 369-385 go on to illustrate several different 30 inch patterns and give the killing circle size for each. The size bird illustrated is a Pigeon. HTH.

Bruce, as I said previously, I will not be siting other sources:), but I would be willing to cite a few.

Fred, thanks. Maybe Mark Ouellette can help with your forum issues.

I sent you a PM with my email. This issue of pattern effectiveness is interesting to me and I would like to learn more. Parker provided us with much information if I can just learn to interpret it. I have much to learn about Parkers and the arcania of shot gunning.

Fred,

Two things come to mind concerning your problem "timing out" when trying to upload files.
1. File size may be too large and will not load. Check the maximum size for file type on the advanced menu.
2. Slow connection from Internet service provider.

If those are not the problem try a cold boot. Turn your computer off and restart to release any cyber gremlins that may be camping out on your hard drive.

Mark

Thanks Mark and Merry Christmas.

Fred, it's a little late in this thread to start touting Greener's "killing circle" statistics and charts. Best to start a new thread. This thread is about a CHE 20 gauge in an A&F trunk case. To me, "killing circle" means that if I'm shooting a 7/8 ounce load in a loose bored gun, I'd better confine my shots to about 25 or 30 yards, the lesser range and #6 or larger shot on cock pheasants and other big prairie birds. If I'm shooting 1 1/8 ounces in a tight bored gun, regardless of gauge, I'm good to maybe 35 or 40 yards, if the shot size is #6 or larger. All other "killing circle" equations are either to one or the other end of the two limits I mentioned. Greener made more of it because he had books and guns to sell. I don't have either to sell and am only interested in clean kills on game birds.

Bill, you are correct in your "killing circle" assumptions. Basically, every 1/8oz. of shot gives you an extra 5yds. of "killing circle", all things being equal. I think this came from the Oberfel and Thompson book "The mystery of shotgun patterns". I'll have to find my copy and reread it but the book has a wealth of knowledge on pattern performance.

So does anybody know the definition of killing circle as used by Parker in the tables in The Small Bore Shot Gun?

I realize that some people may their own views on what killing circle should be but I would like to know what Parker said it was or used it in their 25 yard tables. Obviously it has to do with pattern density, so precisely how was that established?

I'm asking for help here, or at least the identification of the source where I can find the answer if somebody knows.