Winchester Model 97
 

Here is a nice Damascus Mod 97 , not mine, followed by my Mod 1912, from my grandfather.

Well Sir,

You have done it time and time before and now have done it again, presented the forum with an absolutely beautiful example of American craftsmanship from a bygone era. Personally I would rather use that gun in the field than any other modern pump gun. Even if nothing was running or flying I could sit for hours and admire that gun as I do my Parkers.

Thanks,

Dennis

Bruce, that is a very nice Model 97 or 1897. Has it been lettered at Cody? Many high grade 97s and 1897 letter with no checkering. This gun may be absolutely as manufactured with fancy uncheckered wood and corncob forend.

It is.

As an accumulator of model 12's and 1897's as well as a few Parkers I must say that is a spectacular gun. Thanks for the pictures.

Well, tell us about the letter.

97 ad from 1902
 

With some downtime at a show Saturday I was going through a 1902 wholesale price list of FISHING TACKLE and HUNTING OUTFITS by The H H KIFFE Co. 523 Broadway, NY.

The take down 1897 I have has a base price of $19.25. The extras amounted to another $22.50
Fun read.

I know it's hard to read in Gary's ad.

In the paragraph of the description it say's Winchester proof tested the barrels with 9 1/2 drams of powder & 2 1/2 oz of shot.

Do you think they proofed the Damascus barrels with that load as well ??

I would say they absolutely proofed their Damascus barrels with the same loads. Damascus barrels are shown on the same page (with no exclusionary clause) at a $10 premium. The purchaser, after having paid such an exorbitant premium, would have expected nothing less.

must be a misprint on that loading...have you ever tried to put 9 1/2 drams of powder and 2 1/2 ounces of lead in a2 3/4 inch 12 ga hull...that would be a pretty good load even for a 8 ga hull...charlie

Not necessarily Charlie , ive read that Winchester would load a prime case and pour powder down the bore filling the barrel half way up then loading a bullet on top of it. Now this was with one of their rifles but its possible they proofed the shotgun barrel the same. just a thought

milt a 2 3/4 inch 12 ga hull will not hold 9 1/2 drams of powder and 2 1/2 ounce of shot is what i m really saying... charlie

Another try of the ad scan
 

Kiffe ad.

Thanks Gary, If you read that carefully, there is no confusion. It is what it is. And I am not surprised at that proof testing.

Oh I know that lol no way that would fit Hard enough doing that with 3.5" 10 ga . What im saying is you could load a empty hull with a primer then load the rest of it like a muzzle loader. would be very dangerous I bet pour that much shot and powder in a 12 bore . :shock:

Most likely an advertisement ploy. Not unusual back then. Most companys were interested in selling their product and they didn't care how they did it.

I proof tested a Winchester Model 1901 ten gauge cannon with as much powder as the shell would hold (eight drams of black) and more powder up the barrel with a wad in front. I made the mistake of firing it while the cannon was on top of a wood pile instead of on the ground. The cannon did a back flip and landed on the asphalt of my driveway. I guess it was a soft surface, because the cast iron carriage of the cannon was not damaged. This is probably how Winchester did the 9 dram test. Of course, there was no shot in front of my cannon load.

woulda loved to seen that bill...charlie

Bruce, do you know how many 97's were made with damascus?

I don't know.

But here is the one pound test.

what a blast beycha need ear plugs for this one..really nice cannon..charlie

I am blown away by that beautiful Model 97! After reading every word that Sherman Bell wrote about shooting damascus barrels I am confident in shooting mine with standard shells, but I do lean towards shells that produce no more than 10k cup. Nine is better yet.

Bell did his best to destroy Parker (other makers too) damascus barrels and he had a heck of a time to load one heavy enough to get it to blow and even then he had to jam an obstruction of some sort down the tube. I do shoot a lot of RST, but not because I have to.

It would be a treat to shoot that fine 97! Just holding it would be a joy.

I would love to find one of those. I've heard there were only 5 made that way. One was owned by a celeb ( I can't remember his name, but he was featured hunting with it on some show).

I know of four Damascus barreled 97's. The two featured here, another a collector friend ran across & the one I just sent off to Bachelders for Brad to look over. I'm sure there are many more, but how many is anyones guess, it was an expensive upgrade for a technology that was on the way out at the time.

Charley,

After re-reading the text. Winchester said they proofed the barrels with 9 1/2 drams & the assembled gun at 4 1/2 drams. I assume they had some sort of test fixture they mounted just the barrels in and probably loaded the barrel full of powder & shot for the test charge. Just my guess !!

I read somewhere that every single Model 97 model 12 was a 2 3/4 inch gun. Is that true? Early model 12s were not, and I had to have a Nickle Steel gun's chamber lengthened some. I also had the forcing cone eased. I have not touched my 97.

thanks for the up date on the powder charge...that makes since to me now...maybe they used some of those long 6 inch 12 ga hulls i ve seen they would hold 9 1/2 drams of powder and 2 1/2 ounce of shot....any way a stout charge for sure and the 4 1/2 drams is a stout load too...charlie

According to Bell, the reason that damascus barrels got the rep for blowing up was that the first smokeless powders closely mimicked black in volume, so guys could reload their shell with smokeless using the BP scoop/equipment. Smokeless, again from Bell, first came out in 1863!

Then someone invented something like Unique, and when loaded to equal volume as black, a shell so loaded produced 80,000 cup. BOOM! In short, damascus barrels have always been plenty strong. The Brits have been re-proofing them for years!

Now, should we go around trying to blow up a damascus barrel? Nope, your off hand goes with it and maybe a few were poorly made. But I don't hesitate to shoot my GH with standard shells. It is full and full so I shoot RST spreaders in one tube and a standard shell in the other. Viola! I've got a full and modified gun!

steve my 10 bore if choked M/F and agree about the ruggedness of good Damascus . I have done put about 40rds through my Damascus barrels and love em

Returning to the top for the person who asked if anyone has seen a composite barreled '97.