Trojan 16ga 3" chambers
 

I recently purchased a 1914 Trojan in 16ga . When I purchased the gun the guy I brought it from said that it had 2 3/4 chambers . After receiving the gun and upon measuring the chambers, they measure closer to 3" . Seems like I remember reading somewhere that some 16ga Parker guns could be ordered from the factory with 3" chambers . I know some of the Winchester 16ga model 21s and others have 3" chambers and also some 3" 16ga ammo was available before WWII . Is it possible that this Parker gun could have been ordered that way ? Anybody ever heard of this ? Or do you think that this is just a bad job of someone just reaming the chambers too deep ?

I plan on taking to a good gunsmith to have the barrel wall thickness checked out before I shoot it . If checks out , is safe to shoot modern ammo through this gun?

Any thoughts or direction greatly appreciated . :bowdown:

[quote=Mark Garrett;111718]..... Is it possible that this Parker gun could have been ordered that way ?

Ans: Remotely possible and not probable.

...... Or do you think that this is just a bad job of someone just reaming the chambers too deep ?

Ans: Yes

..... If checks out , is safe to shoot modern ammo through this gun?

Ans: At the time your gun was made, it was intended to shoot 7/8oz , 2 1/2 dram loads. A few years after your gun was made and without change to the barrel dimensions, the intended charge was changed to 1 oz , 2 1/2 dram loads. The 1 oz 2 1/2 dram load is sold today as a standard hunting load by Federal, Winchester and Remington.

Loads heavier than those, such as the 1 1/8 oz 3 dram loads sold by some major manufacturers as a heavy hunting 16ga load cause significant recoil in a typical weight 16ga and are ballistically inefficient for the bore.

The heaviest 16-gauge loads offered by Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. in their 1913-14 catalogue were 2 1/2 drams of bulk or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder pushing 1 ounce of shot in their Nitro Club and 2 3/4 drams of bulk or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder pushing 1 ounce of shot in their top quality Arrow shell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps7cbf4b72.jpg

UMC offered to put their 16-gauge load up in 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch cases, but the only advantage they offered was more/better wadding over the "standard" 2 9/16 inch shell.

In their 1915 catalogue Western Cartridge Co. listed the heaviest 16-gauge loads as 2 3/4 drams of bulk or the equivalent in dense smokeless powder pushing 1 ounce of shot from their top of the line Record shell.

In the 20-gauge shells one got a 1/4 dram bulk, or the equivalent in dense, more smokeless powder in the long shells, but not so in the 16-gauge?!? Today, finding old long 20-gauge shells in collector ammunition auctions is rather common, but long 16-gauge shells are like the teeth of hens. There is a single Winchester Leader 3-inch 16-gauge shell in the current SoldUSA online auction. I've never seen a box for the long 16-gauge shells come up for auction.

i ve seen one box of the 3 inch 16 ga come up for auction and it was full..brought a mighty nice price as i remember..no i did not get it... charlie

FWIW, I did a bit more checking in my old catalogues and 2 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 ounce was the heaviest 16-gauge loads in the 1903 and 1904 UMC catalogues, but by the 1905 UMC catalogue the 2 3/4 drams of bulk, or the equivalent in dense, smokeless powder pushing 1 ounce of shot had been added to the offerings in their top quality Arrow shell.

Thanks all for your replies !

I understand the issue with old wood and keeping the recoil to minimum . But is there a concern with keeping the loads low pressure . Are the barrels proofed as such that is it perfectly safe to shoot say any 2 3/4 dram 1oz load as long as it is under SAAMI specs .

Thanks, Mark

That is close to what I do with three Parker 16 ga's, two of which are fluid steel and one Damascus.

However, if a person really wanted to find out, he could check the proof and service load tables in the barrels chapter of The Parker Story, understanding of course that your gun was made before the SAAMI specifications were promulgated. I specifically cited the 1 oz 2 1/2 dre loads from Winchester, Federal and Remington because they are all under Parker stated service loads, some more than others. There are those here who advocate RST cartridges, which are good also, but all are within service load specs in the Parker table.

There are also those here who have personal opinions that it is better to always shoot what they deem to be low pressure loads. I'm just telling you how Parker made them, and the owner can make his own choices.

By my comments, I am not saying that your specific barrels are safe to shoot with anything, only what I do and how Parker made them.

The Parker 16ga patterning load from about 1920 on was 1 oz at 2 1/2 dre. This was the load that Parker used to produce the optimum 40 yard pattern for your gun. That tells me that I ought to use that load unless I choose to load down for targets to save components and my shoulder.

BD , thanks again for reply .

I would really like to reference the Parker story, but do not have access at this time .

As I plan on shooting mostly 3/4 oz 1200fps and occasionally 7/8 oz 1200 fps loads through this gun, with the dram equivalent I should be good .

I guess what I really would like to know is ,leaving Dram equivalent out of the equation . What is the max pressure (PSI ) that is safe to shoot through a good set of 16ga Trojan barrels ? Is there a standard ?

Thanks again ...........Mark

Mark;
The two loads you listed should be fine in that gun. Keeping pressures between 6000-7000 psi. for me is desireable but as Bruce (BD) states, off the shelf loads, usually 1oz, are safe, but to me, punishing not only to you but the gun. Keep in mind that the majority of Parker guns were built to hunt with and not envisioned as target guns where firing 100+ rnds. every week is not unusual. There is NOTHING that a 3/4 or 7/8oz. load won't do in the 16. JMHO.

Thanks again to ALL who have helped . Time to take her out and enjoy her , cant wait till dove season .

Mark, in answer to your question for your gun as originally made, from TPS, p. 515:

Service load working limits: mean 10,100psi

Definitive Proof Pressure: mean 14,200psi


Following is a photo of my old family 1921 PHE 16. The barrels have never been reamed and the stock has never cracked. It has about 80,000 rounds through it. The trigger sears have been recut once for doubling and the hammer springs have been replaced. The ejectors and top lever springs have not been replaced.

It has been my usual bird gun since the 1970's.

BD, that's what I was looking for. Thanks.

BD , with your past experience of sticking to the 2 1/2 dram limit has kept you safe and your guns in good shape , and most likely any of those loads are under 10,000 psi. so I would think this is a good rule of thumb.

All the loads I plan on using in this gun will be under 9,000 psi, so I should be good to go .

Beautiful gun by the way. I hope I can get as much enjoyment out of mine as you have out of yours .


Thanks again !!................Mark

Just use a tight choke and hit the bird in the head.

16's do get better:

While I have no statistical proof, my gut feeling is that if a gun has been in use in North America since Western Cartridge Co.'s introduction of the Super-X load in 1922, it has digested a fair share of Western Super-X, Remington Nitro Express, Peters High Velocity, Winchester Super-Speed, or Federal Hi-Power loads during the last 90 years. At least within my family my Father, Grandfather and Uncles all swore by the above loads. But, when the 2 3/4 inch Magnums came along in 1955 they rebuffed them.

I think the headline of this 1952 Western Cartridge Co. ad sums up the average North American Nimrod's attitude towards shotgun ammunition for the last 120 years --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps5728987b.jpg

BD ,

Gorgeous Guns , thanks for sharing ! Although this is my first Parker , it's not my first 16ga , Lets just say, I have several (15, I think ) IMO It is by far the best upland gauge ever .


Researcher , I always enjoy your post , here and on other sites ,very educational and informative . Keep em coming !

THANKS ! :bowdown: