Modified Parker for sporting clays?
 

Gentleman,

This is my first post to the forum. In the 1970s, I was introduced to Parkers when learning to shoot skeet. One of the guys at the club shot a VH 20ga skeet...shot it very well! I went on to shoot registered skeet with O/U tube sets and dabbled in sporting clays over many years.

I recently stumbled onto a modified Parker that has me dreaming about bringing it home. I would like your help in deciding if this gun is worth owning. My desire is to own a shooter for SxS sporting events. I am not a Parker expert so bear with me if my description lacks important details.

12ga DH receiver with serial of 56xxx on trigger guard, 40% case colors with bright color in protected areas, appears that a varnish was applied over the receiver with brown spots here and there, lever right of center, extractors, manual safety, Miller non-selective single trigger.

30" steel barrels (not Damascus). I believe serial number is too early for Titanic steel which suggests the barrels are later mfg and have been fitted. Original rib milled down with Simmons vent rib added. Lock up is tight. Did not have my bore gauge with me to check constrictions.

Non-original stock of fancy walnut with modern dimensions (approx 2-1/4" DAH, 14-1/4" LOP) with Parker pattern checkering. Forearm original and heavily dinged.

This gun was obviously set up years ago to shoot trap. I really like how it handles.

Questions for the forum:
1. With the Miller ST, will the gun be reliable for a round of clays (inertia set for second shot using 1oz light loads, no doubling)?
2. Is the age of the receiver a concern?
3. Do I need to research barrel steel origin to make sure it is a safe shooter? If so, how do I go about doing so?
4. Given that the gun has no collector value, what would be a fair price to pay for this very neat shooter?

Thanks in advance for your opinions, suggestions, and wisdom.

Cliff

Cliff,

Welcome to the forum. I am sure more knowledgeable people than me will give answers as well but let me give my answer to the best of my ability.

A serial number would help so the gun can be researched at least to see what the barrel length is supposed to be, if possibly the Miller trigger is factory original. You are asking for a value on a totally unseen object. It is like asking how much is a 1975 Ford worth. Without knowing if it is a Ford Falcon or a Thunderbird who knows. Photos if you can submit them will give our resident experts far more to go on than just you offering you have a DH with a restocked butt stock and a dinged forearm. Believe me we want to see your gun and give you all the information we can but we need something to work with. Even with the new butt stock, is it circassian walnut with beautiful marbling or is is an old 1950's Bishop or Fajen stocked gun. See what I mean. Actually the gun may have some collector value due to the Miller trigger. We would need to know what the barrel rib says to determine if it is correct to the gun or not. It may not be Titanic steel but still could be put there by Parker Brothers on a special order. Without knowing more information I would be a loss to give a value. Offhand I would say between $300.00 and $1000.00 but who knows. I hope I have been of some assistance. Please let us know the serial number and try to submit some photos so we can answer your questions.

Dennis

the 56K range on the trigger guard means it is from one of the very early hammerless guns, what serial number is on the water table and what markings are on the barrel flats?

the barrels may have been replaced by Parker or Remington. they may have come from another Parker and been fitted, or they could be one of the after market non Parker barrels we see now and then. Each option will have a different affect on value.

good pictures will help

Dennis,

The gun is on consignment in a local shop. I plan on going back with my bore gauge and asking the shop owner if I can speak to the current owner. The last three digits of the serial were very faint. But I believe the full number is 56,875.

The vent rib is a Simmons rib that was definitely added in the 1970s or later. I have an identical rib with the Simmons oval posts from that era on my Winchester M12 20ga custom.

Value is subjective, especially on modified guns which fall outside of the usual grading standards. Your price range tells me that, for you, the modifications have little value. Looks like the going price for a good to very good 12ga VH is $1,000-1,500. This is helpful to know if I decide to make an offer on this gun.

The feature that interests me is the Miller trigger. I am hoping to hear from someone who regularly shoots a Miller trigger Parker regarding reliability (inertia set using light target loads), possibility of doubling.

Cliff

Miller triggers are mechanical and probably the best vintage single triggers!

Any modifications to a Parker will normally detract from value. A Simmons vent rib may be great for targets but is a detraction from collect-ability. If the gun is been restocked by a master the value should not be reduced. By a master restocker I mean that a Parker expert need to remove the trigger guard to inspect for the Parker-stamped serial number. If anyone can tell it is a restock by simple observation then the value is definitely reduced!

As a target gun the a quality restock of new wood, vent rib, and Miller trigger will serve you well. I would not however pay extra for any of those features. At best the price should be the same (but probably less than) the original gun.

The above advice stated, if there is DOCUMENTED provenance that this Parker was owned and used by a famous trap shooter then the modifications WITH the provenance should make the gun more valuable that if it were in the original configuration.

For what it's worth,
Makr

There should not be any concerns about the age of he receiver or the quality of he steel. Yes, barrels are deffinately not original for that serial number range. Look for evidence of monoblocking. If not, look at barrel flat markings. If there are factory flat markings, it will tell you what the barrels are from. If no marks and no evidence of monoblocking, the. They are aftermarket barrels. Good chance is the gun has seen a good amount of shooting and barrel strength should not be a concern, but it is good to check out wall thickness and such things.
Is there a price tag on the gun? Instead of asking for a cold opinion on value, why not mention the price and we can advise on if we think it to be reasonable. Obviously, with such guns, they are worth what someone will pay, but the quality of the work and the price level will make a big difference as to if it is a good buy.

Guys,

Thanks for the replies. Great advice.

I had not thought about the possibility of the gun having a famous trapshooter/owner. All the more reason to get in contact with the current owner.

I should clarify my intentions. The collectibility of this gun is a secondary concern. My interest is in shooting the gun at SxS sporting clay events before or after shooting the main event with my Beretta O/U. I just happen to like vintage Winchesters and Parkers. If I own it, the gun will get used!

Therefore, I am thankful for receiving tips on how to evaluate this gun as a solid shooter. The gun fits me as currently stocked. Most vintage Parkers have too much drop. All I see is the back of the receiver...no bead or barrels. I shoot single trigger guns so the Miller trigger is the deal-maker or deal-breaker...if it is unreliable!

Ultimately I will reach some conclusion of what the gun is worth to me. But like everyone else, I don't want to get taken to the cleaners. As a solid shooter, I am thinking $1,200-$1,500. Does that seem right?

The smart thing to do would be to spend a little more and acquire a Beretta 471 Silver Hawk for my purposes. But I find the idea of shooting clays with a 100+ year old Parker very appealing!

Cliff

You must at least post pictures of the flats of the barrels and the breech section of the barrels all the way around. The flats of the barrels will give us lots of information about the origin of the barrels. More pictures would be helpful also. Mark is correct about the trigger, it is not an inertia trigger if it is a Miller. How did you identify it as a Miller? A non selective Miller trigger is a scarce trigger, not often encountered.

Cliff- I have had a whole lot of fun shooting trap and skeet with Parkers. My VH is 86 years old and the SBT is 90. Last Thursday I was high score on 50 targets at something they call "international" with the VH using double triggers. The game requires 2 shots. (I have shot real international trap in Luxembourg (HOA-dumb luck) and this game is not international but it IS difficult.) These are the only guns I will use at trap. The other shooters (especially the older shooters) love them and all try them at one point or another.

Don't be too shy of double triggers. They take very little to get used to, are extremely reliable, and offer instant selection of different choke. The old time pigeon shooters didn't have any issue.

Lastly, I'd say go with your gut on the DH something. Karma means a lot in head games like sporting clays.

I have a Parker Live bird Gun, with a Miller Trigger. Have shot it for years, without a single problem.
I think the Miller Trigger is one of the finest triggers you can get, on a SxS.

The price range you mention is not at all out of line for a gun you will shoot and that fits you well. If all works as it should.

Regarding the question on verification if the single trigger is a Miller, the name Miller is stamped on the flat close to the floor plate. No slide in front of trigger to select barrel.

Next step is to go back to the shop, ask the owner if I can break the gun down, measure bores, barrel thickness, note markings on flats, water table, and take some pictures. Hopefully he will allow me to contact the owner.

Thanks for the help and encouragement. Stay tuned.

Cliff

As you move the safety back and forth, what markings are on the top tang, under the safety? If the markings are "L", "R", and "S", you have a selective Miller trigger. If only the factory "SAFE" is engraved, the trigger is truly a scarce and unusual non selective Miller trigger.

I believe just "SAFE" was engraved but will verify when I take a second look later this week. Does scarce mean unreliable and less desirable?

It is a very old DH receiver, #56,875.

All Miller triggers are quite reliable and do not detract from the value of a non-original Parker like this one. We don't yet know the status of the barrels or barrel markings. If the barrels are Parker barrels, we will ask about the type of bolt cut on the barrel lug. This gun originally had a plain bolt cut with no added or removable replacement plate to tighten the gun when it gets loose. Don't give up. This gun could still be a good shooting gun.

Cliff;
I have 2 Miller non-selective triggers, one in a 28ga and the other in a 20ga. which over a period of 40yrs. have worked flawlessly. They were a big improvement over the Parker single trigger (especially the early ones). I would not hesitate for a minute to purchase a gun with a Miller trigger and I am pleased to know that they are scarce and unusual as per Mr. Murphy.

Inspection, round 2 with pics
 

Gents,

I took a closer look at this gun yesterday afternoon. Additional information:

DH receiver serial #56,815 (not #56,875)
Barrel and forearm matching serial #101,278
Barrel flat markings: K superscript f, 4 superscript 1, 2 on back of lug, + sign just above both extractors.
Left barrel: bore .731", diameter .804", constriction .040"
Right barrel: bore .733", diameter .806", constriction .028"

As mentioned in the first post, the stock is non-original with modern dimensions, forearm heavily dinged and appears original, and a Simmons vent rib added with factory solid rib milled down prior to installation. Miller single non-selective trigger.

I am interested in this gun as a shooter for clays. I would open the chokes to IC/M. I realize it has no collector value given the mis-matched frame/barrel and modifications. If the gun can be bought for $1,500 or less, should I jump on it?

Thanks for all the great responses.

The barrels and forend were from a VH. If the barrels lock up tight and the rest of the gun functions correctly, buy it for as little as possible, then have the chokes opened up and have fun!

Cliff,
it looks like a very nice shooter to me....i'd jump on it @ 1500
just my opinion. stock looks pretty good to me, are you sure about the restock ?
don't let the dimensions fool you, I have several originals with very modern dims. the miller should do you fine. I have a selective & a non, both work great.
ddp

Cliff, what is the consignment price on this gun you're considering? Several have asked you this question.

Allen,

Asking price is $2,000, which seems high to me given that a nice VH can be had for less. My task is to convince the shop owner to convince the consigner that the gun has no collector interest given the modifications. And the owner will need to agree to a 3-day inspection/test fire period.

We'll see what happens.

For a gun (however nice) that is put together from other guns, in my opinion, $2K is way more than I would be willing to pay. Good 'shooters' can be found for less $ and in more or less original condition. Your strategy is right Cliff. Good luck.

It turns out the price was relatively non-negotiable. I could not justify the asking price given the non-original rib and heavily dinged non-matching forearm.

My plan is to keep looking. Many thanks to the forum for your insight and opinions.