A family Parker
 

Hello, Friends,
I am showing you this Parker exactly as it came into my temporary possesion: In pieces. The gun belongs to the estate of my cousin. Another cousin would like to purchase it from the estate. We are seeking advice on several issues, including fair market value to the estate in its current condition, advice on parts which might not be original or might be missing, etc.

If I exceed the photo limit, I will re-post in smaller, follow-up posts.

We have a size 3 frame. Serial number indicates it was made in 1881, which is curious, because it's a grade 1. Other info on the site suggests that grade 1 began in 1882. I believe it's a ten gauge. Barrels are marked "laminated steel."

In its current condition, it looks like a pig, but I think it could at least be made into a wall-hanger, and perhaps even a restored gun.

Good things about it: Most parts are here, but we are probably missing a few screws. Locks show very nice case colors, but they don't show in my photos. Barrels show little surface rust on the outside. They are a plum brown color. They ring like church bells when lightly tapped. Rib is secure. Steel laminations are clearly visible in barrels, although they don't show in my pictures. Barrels have lots of wall thickness and pits aren't too deep. Stock is nice walnut with a bit of figure.

Bad things about it: Bores show some pitting, as we would expect, and a bit of rust in the chamber area. Extractor is currently frozen in a partially lifted position. Its shaft is not bent. I believe it's frozen due to rust, and could be made to move again. Internal lock works show some discoloration here and there--perhaps rust, perhaps just funk. Triggers move, but do not operate smoothly or easily. Butt plate is toast. Dog face is almost completely worn off, and a chip is missing from toe. One butt plate screw appears to be a replacement.
One hammer screw has a damaged slot. I do not see a precise wood to metal fit in the stock inlets and fittings. I expect a Parker to have a much better fit of wood to metal. Stock might be a replacement, but it is old. Or, it might have been sanded down at some point in history. I see "hairy"mold or mildew in the lock inlets. There is a very small dent in the left barrel, and some kind of dried (formerly liquid) funk on the right barrel. Most metal parts are HEAVILY painted with a clear finish of some kind--varnish or lacquer.

Please advise on a few things: First, fair value to the estate in its current condition. Next, immediate cleaning of issues such as the mold or mildew in the lock inlets. Last--and I know this is whimsy--if it were yours, would you make it a wall hanger or perhaps look into restoring it more fully? We realize it might not be worth that kind of expense.
Many thanks to all,
Patrick

looking from the practical side of things GEORGE IS RIGHT... but me i have a love for old rusty things...first old gun not worth much tops 250 dollars as it is...if it was mine i would clean up all the parts as best as i could free up the extractor with oil and lightly use asmall hammer and brass punch to free it...and use care doing this...i would measure the bores after cleaning and if it passes i would finisg cleaning the rest of gunk and crud off the gun.reassemble her if any missing pieces hunt them up and start shooting this old gun again...i think the old gun is worth saving it just needs a good clean up and then go hunting with it...dont try to make it new the cost would keep you from enjoying it..but this gun can be saved for very little cost... charlie

I'd agree with Charlie, if it is a piece of family history, and the cousin is willing to clean it up, more power to him. Cash value is minimal as is, but reassembled and assuming the barrels are safe (they should be checked by someone who knows doubles) tell him to go buy a few boxes of RST shells and enjoy it.

In your fourth photo the barrels look very bad do not think you could shoot them in this state, but as Charlie says I never send a Parker to the scrape pile so to speak, I would try to save her and just find parts to make it a shooter but believe you will have to find a set of barrels, Damascus will work as long as it is a three frame, Parkers are like old dogs just cause they are old and decrepit, don't mean you get rid of them, think about the work they did when they were younger, dog and gun, my two cents Gary

Thanks, Guys. I suspected it would not be a "paying" proposition to do a restoration. The "as-is" price range is very helpful, too. My cousin will probably ask me to re-assemble the gun, so please give me some advice about cleaning.

1. Best way to clean the inlets of that hairy mildew? Alcohol or weak bleach on Q-tips?

2. Best way to clean the mystery coating off metal parts? I'm inclined to experiment on the barrel bottoms under the forearm with some lacquer thinner.

3. Barrels look worse in my photos than they do in person, but there is a small dent as shown in photo #4. I think that could be fixed for cosmetic purposes, but I don't have the tools to do it. I'll tell my cousin to take to a pro if he's interested. Most of what you are seeing in terms of graininess and texture is not rust--it's the coating.

4. Okay to polish rust off lug, flats, etc. with very fine abrasive paper? I make guitars and mandolins as a hobby, and I'm very good with small sanding blocks. Please advise about other, preferred methods.

5. Does anyone make replica hard rubber Parker butt-plates? I'd think this would be a relative easy thing to do with modern molding technologies, and will be surprised if no one does this.

6. Just curious--do you guys think this is the original stock? Would it have been checkered at one time? I can't tell if it has shrunk or has been sanded and refinished years ago.

7. Any other advice you'd like to share.

Many thanks to all,
Patrick

Patrick, I agree with the others about keeping the gun. I think it might be a shooter depending on if someone with Parker Gun experience would examine the gun for safety. As for cleaning I typically use a toothbrush for the stock recesses. The metal can be cleaned up remarkably well without damaging it by using some type of light oil and 0000 steel wool. As for the stuck extractor put some oil on it, as stated above, and let it work itself in for a few hours. It will probably free itself up. I think with a good cleaning you will find you have a remarkably good gun. Replacement buttplates can be found.

Good luck with it and please let us know what happens.

Dennis

The value of what you have to start with is minimal, but the fact that it all appears to be there is good. You'll never get out of it what you need to put into it, but when has that ever stopped me? I don't go into these projects with the first hoot as to what I 'could' get out of it.
Just take a look at some of the threads on this site, such as George's C grade restoration. There are well respected people used by the members who do this sort of work daily.

Patrick, to my eye it looks to be an original stock. I have enlarged both pictures and see no reason to call it a replacement. In fact, I think I can see one partial digit of the serial number stamped in the flat of the wood where the trigger guard strap sits in the wood. That is where Parker bros. stamped their stocks to identify which gun they belonged to in the manufacturing process. Carefully clean that area and let us know what you find.

Hi, Dean. You are correct. I hadn't noticed the number there. I have not cleaned it yet, but can actually see that number more clearly than the one on the water table. Both numbers match. I mis-read the serial number previously. I mistook "292" for "232"
in the first three digits. The correct number now places the gun in 1883. That, of course, works out better for the introduction of the grade. The lack of checkering and the rounded tip on the pistol grip had me confused. I've never seen a photo of a Parker with an un-checkered stock. That particular inlet has also been painted with the mystery finish. Should these inlet surfaces be finished or bare wood? Seems to me they should be unfinished or only very thinly finished.
Many thanks for the info.
Patrick

I would have someone reel familar with shotgun barrel look at yours before I wasted any real time on the gun. Your barrels look realy bad. Hope thats not the case. If the Barrels are shot you would be better off makeing a wall hanger out of it or parting it out. This is of course just my opinion.

Patrick, it is not unusual to see grade 0 and grade 1 guns of that period with no checkering at all.
I can't say for certain about that finish in the inlet for the trigger guard strap. I thought most of them were only oil finished in there and the rest of the stock would have had a shellac or something similar.

Hi, Wayne and Dean.
Wayne, thanks for the input. The way I look at it, doing a bit of cleaning is a fun way for me to spend a Saturday afternoon. I don't have any illusions about finding a silk purse under this current sow, but my photos didn't do the barrels justice. I think it'll wind up being a wall hanger, too. The fact is, my cousin who is purchasing this gun doesn't have the full use of his left arm, so he will probably never intend to shoot it. And he's sensible enough to know it must be approved by a competent vintage gun specialist before he could attempt to do such a thing. (That said, his arm doesn't keep him from shooting lighter guns very well, nor fly fishing, either). And further, the way I see it is this: If we take it to a vintage barrel specialist, that person would need to clean it before assessing it, so I am happy to do some of that preliminary work. I won't over-clean it. I've got great patience (remember, I build guitars) but I'm not a glutton for punishment when things get too tedious. If I run into anything that doesn't seem right to me, I'll stop immediately. Any potential restoration work will be my cousin's decision, and it won't be done by me. My thoughts have gone precisely along the lines of your advice.

Dean, thanks again to you, too. The stock finish looks like a professional job to me, and is in pretty good shape overall. I think whoever painted the barrels and other metal parts with lacquer (or whatever) also painted it into the inlets. That's a problem, but not insurmountable. I am glad to have your input on this point. None of my guns, including my Spanish double gun, have finish in the inlets, beyond a light coat of wiped oil. Most have no finish at all in those recesses. I suspected that would be the case with old Parkers, too. Thanks to all for your interest and encouragement.

You've already been told but I'll restate it's worth near-nothing.

Guns are funny things. If a person's great-great grandpa had bought a new Ford in 1906 and driven it mercilessly for 15 years, crashed it into a tree while drunk and with his mistress, then parked it outdoors for another 15 years before using it to pull a plow for 10 years, there would be little sentiment attached to that heap of iron. 60 years later his descendants wouldn't feel any obligation to attach sentiment to it. But a gun - that's a different story.

you obviously haven't tried to buy an antique Ford to restore

that there is "patina" :rotf:

If you have the time and the inclanation you might take more pictures at different angles of the barrel blemish. Some times the camera dose funny things. As for restoration or serious clean up my rule of thumb is if a gun is so bad as to be non functional (assuming the barels are sound) than any work you do to bring it back to life is a good thing. If a gun is mechanically sound and the wood is,nt to cosmeticaly challanged than restoration is not cost effective.Unless it is rare you wont get your money back.

Hi, Wayne. You make excellent points. I am pretty convinced the best that can be hoped for is to make it a handsome display piece. I'm just interested in getting it to that point. For me, it is a labor of love and pretty interesting, and it costs me nothing more than some pleasant time in my shop. I didn't get anything done on it today. But I re-assembled an 1873 trapdoor Springfield rifle that can most likely be a shooter (after inspection) which will also belong to my cousin. If and when I have some visible progress, I will certainly shoot some more photos and post them. Many thanks.
Patrick

Look foward to seeing the future pictures. Guns make the most interesting prodjects.

i think the old gun will shoot again with nothing but a clean up... charlie

Hi, again, Friends. I spent some time cleaning what I will call the "receiver frame" today and also the right barrel. I believe this mystery coating is along the lines of a dark shellac, because alcohol seems to do the best job of taking it off. As you all know, it is a time consuming process, but I was pretty fascinated while doing it. The frame is not quite ready for its glamor shot yet, but it's close. It's cleaning up nicely. The barrels have a way to go before another photo. If any of you have a nice photo showing how a set of "laminated steel" barrels should look, I would sure appreciate seeing it. I do NOT want to over-clean this puppy.
Thanks to all,
Patrick

I forgot to mention that I have used acidtone to remove varnish or shalic from the wood. Just drop the stock in and let it soak a while. Then I use one of those scrubber padswith a sponge on one side and lightly wipe the stock. Fare worning if there is any filler or glue in the stock it WILL disolve it. This should take the shelac out of your inletting. You will have to reoil the stock.

Hi, Wayne. It might come to that. But right now the stock finish is really pretty darn good to my eyes. I sure hate to take all that off if I can avoid it. Unfortunately for me, the only alternative will be q-tips and meticulous work in the inlets. I'll do a little experimenting in a very conservative manner. If necessary, then a total bath and scrub down. I'm real good at finishing wood, but, dang, I hate to take the current finish off this stock if I can avoid it. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
In the long run, it might be the simplest route. I really do appreciate your input.

Anyone got any pics of clean laminated steel barrels, looking as they should? I've seen a number of barrels on the site that are achingly beautiful, but polished down pretty far. I'd sure rather leave as much of the barrel finish as possible on this one. Not sure it's possible. I'd like to see some pics that will give me a goal to aim for. I think you know what I mean.

Oh...good news today. In a very early post, I described some blobs of something on the right barrel, which might have been solder, or might have been blobs of the shellac. They were shellac. They softened up and came right off. Whew!

Patrick

Laminated Steel barrels from a 16 gauge Grade 1 made in 1892.



.

Wow! Those are beautiful barrels. These aren't going to be showy like that at all--unfortunately. But they do have quite a bit of nice brown/gray color to them. I can see a spiral pattern in them, too, but the light has to be right. Thanks, Dean!

Hello again, Friends,
I have not had a lot of time to devote to this clean up in recent days, but I do have some additional photos for you now. In my view, these barrels will NEVER be shot again. Not while I'm around, anyway. But I think if the bad barrel is hung next to the wall, it'll be a handsome display gun.

The flaw in the left barrel, which I originally thought was a hammered-out dent, now looks much more like a weld repair to me. And an ugly one, at that. Note the nick in the top rib. That's why I thought it was a dent. But this flaw spirals around the barrel to the bottom rib, and I assume it is following the line of a weld failure and attempted repair. Pretty sad, but there we have it.

On the other hand, the right barrel cleaned up pretty well, and looks pretty darned good, considering all the abuse this old shotgun has suffered. In this view, the right barrel is on the bottom.

While sorting through various loose parts the other day, I realized we are missing some screws that belong in the forend assembly. I guess they wouldn't technically need to be there if it's just going to hang on the wall in a display case, but it would be nice to have them. Are parts like these screws possible to find any more? I know they could be fabricated, but not for a wall hanger.

And I discovered a further setback. The screw which mounts both lock plates to the frame and stock is slightly bent. It still threads fine, but it'll never run true through the stock unless it is straightened. If this was my gun, I'd straighten it myself. However, it isn't mine. I will suggest to my cousin that he spend the money to have this screw straightened. He won't bat an eye at that.

I've just about given up on the stuck extractor. I easily removed the extractor screw, and I filled this recess with Kroil. I propped the barrels with the breeches down. In about a day, the Kroil was flowing through around the extractor shaft, and bringing out a lot of bright red rust with it. I am pretty certain that much of the extractor is loose. However, when I prop the gun with the muzzles down, the Kroil doesn't flow out to the other end. When I prop the barrels with breeches down and apply a few drops of Kroil to the extractor shaft right ahead of the barrel hooks and lugs, it doesn't flow through. I have done this in repeated overnight sessions, with light taps on either end of the extractor (nothing touching the extractor but brass). I can't make it move. I suspect someone with more nerve and a firmer hand could get it moving, but it's not going to be me. I will also tell my cousin he needs to have a pro free this part up. Let's face it, we'll never get it back together if we can't lower the extractor.

Best wishes to all,
Patrick

You might try soaking tour extractor in Break Free. The stuff works pretty good. To bad about the barrels. I did'nt think they would make it but I hoped I was wrong.

I forgot to mention. You might try PMing Brian Dudley on the screws. He may be able to help you out.

Thanks, Wayne. On a brighter note, the main receiver frame cleaned up pretty well, too. I'll post some before and after pics of that sometime tomorrow. And both hammers seem to wiggle on each axis, so if I could get those hammer screws out, I could remove the hammers and gently clean up the outside of the lock plates real well. But you guys have seen that one boogered up hammer screw, so you know at least one of them will be a long shot. No pun intended there.

What do you guys make of that one barrel? Do you think I'm right? Does it look like a failed weld in the original barrel lamination strips?

Best to all.
Patrick

Though I have never created a weld in my life that sure looks like a weld to me. I think you are right not to shoot it, at least more than once.

Dennis

You got that right, Dennis! I think a person would be about as safe in front of it as behind it! The right barrel is probably no better. It looks great from end to end on the outside, but has some fairly deep pitting in the bore. Interestingly, most of the pitting is in the third nearest the breech. The forward two thirds aren't too bad. But it's a moot point.

Most likely caused by an obstruction. I dont buy in to the rust in the seam theory. When they hammer welded metal togeather it fuses it useing heat and preasure. If done properly there are no pockets in the metal to trap air. You need air for it to rust. Just my opinion. Old rule of thum is if the barrel blows in the first half of the barrel (Breech to center) it is because of an over load. If it blowes in the second half of the barrel (center to muzzle) it is because of an obstruction.

I thought you intended to give this (or sell it to) some cousin who had an interest in it. Seems your taking it upon yourself to clean, restore, and make decisions the cousin should have wanted to make. Most guns on the edge of junk or new life have been pushed over the wrong side by well intentioned amateur restorers. Why not let the guy you said was going to get the gun determine it's fate?

Hi, Edgar. Your point is very well made and well received on this end, too. I failed to mention that the cousin who is receiving the gun and I have been all over the gun together, inside and out. I've shown him all its visible problems and detailed for him what I was willing to do and what I wouldn't touch. He asked me to clean it as well as I can and is aware of everything that I am doing. So, he really has made that decision. My approach to this continues to be ultra conservative. Mostly, it has been a matter of removing a really sloppy, funky coating of sprayed-on shellac. It included overlaps, runs and drips. (I assume shellac because alcohol takes it off better than anything). I have removed three screws to facilitate this process. For example, I just removed the right side hammer so I could clean the lock plate under it. I separated the wood and metal parts, too, although some assemblies were already off the gun and in a paper bag when they came to me. If I had not had the proper sized screw drivers in my gun screw driver set, I wouldn't even have attempted those tasks. Nothing is touching the metal except soft cloths, alcohol, and in some cases like the barrels, a lubricated Frontier pad. A lot of effort for a display gun, but my cousin has a case full of display guns that will never be fired. He enjoys having them in addition to his contemporary shooters. And I enjoy doing this project for him. The best part is that he's the sort of guy who wouldn't bat an eye at also buying a fully restored Parker if the whim strikes him. He's not going to balk at replacing some missing screws--or anything else if the mood strikes him. Quite a remarkable guy. In the meantime, I'm realistic about my own abilities and limitations, and I don't have any intention of messing up this gun. Genuine thanks for your concern. I'm in total agreement with you.

Here's a picture you haven't seen yet. When I said the applied coating was full of overlaps, runs and drips, I wasn't kidding. Here's the way the right barrel (and some other pieces) looked like when they came to me:

The receiver frame is an example of something I wish I could do, but I lack the specific tools and experience to do it. The outside cleaned up well. I'd love to remove those plunger screws and get the firing pins and springs out for a cleaning, but you can see that someone else has already bungled that screw slot a little bit. I don't have the right sized driver in my set for this slot, so I'm not going there. I'd also love to get to the innards because I can feel them working smoothly and well, but I know there's rust in there. I'd love to remove the top lever so I could clean under it better. But I'm not going there. I believe this receiver is really sound, and could probably function just fine if the barrels were okay, but I'm not the one to strip it.

One thing I've noticed about the damaged screw slots on this gun is that they were mostly caused by over-tightening with improperly sized drivers. Very few have any damage from loosening or removing them. So this makes me wonder: Was it common for these guns to shoot their screws loose? Take a real close look at this hammer screw slot. Fortunately, it's not on the "display" side of the gun. I'm not sure the photo will show it clearly, but to the naked eye it's obvious to me that this slot was damaged by clockwise turns. Ergo, someone was trying to tighten it down for the umpteenth time: